Stealing requires using something for yourself. Like that gasoline was used or joyriding itself was used. Scratching a car is just vandalizing. What object you are stealing by vandalizing?
Isn’t scratching a car stealing the resale value? The owner has to pay to get it fixed to restore the value.
Therefore, vandalism is theft. Quod erat up your demonstrandum :)
Also, assault is theft (of peace of mind), rape is theft (of trust), flaying someone alive is theft (of skin).
If you want to stretch the definition of theft to include any harm, even without depriving someone of their property (i.e. the actual definition), you make the word meaningless. There are already words for other crimes.
In order for it to count as a theft, one has to take something from a person and use it yourself in such way that the other person can not use that anymore (unless it is somehow returned it). So, at least two conditions should be satisfied, not just one. In case of gasoline, it is clear cut. In case of joyriding, you are stealing a portion of car’s life. The owner can not use that portion on themselves anymore (thus depreciation), but you did.
Scratching car - you did not take anything and used for yourself. Same goes for other things you mention, except possibly the flaying, if you really take that skin for yourself and use it somehow for your benefit. Make a lamp or something. Obviously, flaying would not be just stealing even in this case, because you have induced suffering as well (and possibly death).
That’s still not right. Theft is taking something with the intent to deprive the owner.
The US has twisted it somewhat and made it more vague, where depriving the owner of opportunity is sometimes a thing, but really that’s just bullshit that rightsholders have shovelled in - it doesn’t fit the core principles behind the law, and the rest of the world does not follow that. Much like how they’re trying to make copyright infringement be tantamount to theft (which is also being pushed onto other countries).
Why do you support their profit-driven greed in changing the law against your social interests?
Theft is taking something with the intent to deprive the owner
I disagree. If I am hungry and I still an apple from the store, I might even feel very guilty about it, and definitely there was no intent to deprive the owner.
Why do you support their profit-driven greed in changing the law against your social interests?
If I am hungry and I still an apple from the store, I might even feel very guilty about it, and definitely there was no intent to deprive the owner.
The very act of taking the apple and eating it deprives the owner, you can’t argue you had no intent to do something that you clearly did do. You might regret it, you might internally rationalise and try to justify it, but the fact is you made a choice to deprive the owner.
What? Where? How?
By trying to label copyright infringement as a crime when it is not, in the black and white letter of the law, you are supporting the media industry’s efforts to rewrite the law.
There are plenty of examples of doing things without intent. Hell, you can kill somebody without intent of killing. Why stealing is different? While I suspect most of the stealing happens with the knowledge that you will deprive the owner, the intent might not be there. And why does it matter anyway? Even if you did not know that you are stealing (eating an apple that you thought was yours) it is still a stealing.
As for “trying” to label copyright infringement as a crime, I did not do that, I just stated that it is unlawful. (I do not know if it is a crime, but likely is). It is simple fact that the current law of the land is such that you can be penalized for copyright infringement. And in fact I stated it could have been different, that we could have different laws. I also stated that copyright violation is NOT a stealing, despite of the fact that you deprive the creator of the potential revenue. That’s simply because you do not take anything from a person. Just because you deprived somebody from potential revenue does not make it illegal or even immoral. There are plenty examples of completely moral and legal ways to deprive others from potential revenue, for example, business competition. If you win a contract, you deprived your competitors from potential revenue.
So let me reiterate my position stated here in this thread: copyright violation is illegal. By law of the land. I did not claim that it is immoral. I did not claim that it should continue to be illegal. (I did not claim the opposite either).
Because you can’t usually take something by accident. If you did, and you could reasonably demonstrate that it wasn’t intentional (rather than just saying “oh I didn’t know it was in my pocket”), then you might not be convicted of theft.
As for “trying” to label copyright infringement as a crime, I did not do that, I just stated that it is unlawful.
You’re right, you didn’t say that. I apologise, I lost track of who I was replying to in this long thread (I wish Lemmy would give you a ?context=3000 thing like reddit did).
Copyright infringement is indeed illegal, in any form. It is a civil offense at the base level, meaning the rightsholder has to prosecute it themselves, however it can escalate to a criminal offense if certain conditions are met. This never used to be the case, back when all the Napster trials happened it was only ever a civil offense, however over the last decade or so media companies have been successful in lobbying the government and changing the law. I just hope they don’t manage to change it further - rights like the right to record live TV on video were hard won and shouldn’t be undermined.
Stealing requires using something for yourself. Like that gasoline was used or joyriding itself was used. Scratching a car is just vandalizing. What object you are stealing by vandalizing?
Isn’t scratching a car stealing the resale value? The owner has to pay to get it fixed to restore the value. Therefore, vandalism is theft. Quod erat up your demonstrandum :)
Also, assault is theft (of peace of mind), rape is theft (of trust), flaying someone alive is theft (of skin).
If you want to stretch the definition of theft to include any harm, even without depriving someone of their property (i.e. the actual definition), you make the word meaningless. There are already words for other crimes.
In order for it to count as a theft, one has to take something from a person and use it yourself in such way that the other person can not use that anymore (unless it is somehow returned it). So, at least two conditions should be satisfied, not just one. In case of gasoline, it is clear cut. In case of joyriding, you are stealing a portion of car’s life. The owner can not use that portion on themselves anymore (thus depreciation), but you did.
Scratching car - you did not take anything and used for yourself. Same goes for other things you mention, except possibly the flaying, if you really take that skin for yourself and use it somehow for your benefit. Make a lamp or something. Obviously, flaying would not be just stealing even in this case, because you have induced suffering as well (and possibly death).
You argued that joyriding was theft because it depreciates value.
At least two conditions are necessary. Your are benefiting, and the other person has damages.
That’s still not right. Theft is taking something with the intent to deprive the owner.
The US has twisted it somewhat and made it more vague, where depriving the owner of opportunity is sometimes a thing, but really that’s just bullshit that rightsholders have shovelled in - it doesn’t fit the core principles behind the law, and the rest of the world does not follow that. Much like how they’re trying to make copyright infringement be tantamount to theft (which is also being pushed onto other countries).
Why do you support their profit-driven greed in changing the law against your social interests?
I disagree. If I am hungry and I still an apple from the store, I might even feel very guilty about it, and definitely there was no intent to deprive the owner.
What? Where? How?
The very act of taking the apple and eating it deprives the owner, you can’t argue you had no intent to do something that you clearly did do. You might regret it, you might internally rationalise and try to justify it, but the fact is you made a choice to deprive the owner.
By trying to label copyright infringement as a crime when it is not, in the black and white letter of the law, you are supporting the media industry’s efforts to rewrite the law.
There are plenty of examples of doing things without intent. Hell, you can kill somebody without intent of killing. Why stealing is different? While I suspect most of the stealing happens with the knowledge that you will deprive the owner, the intent might not be there. And why does it matter anyway? Even if you did not know that you are stealing (eating an apple that you thought was yours) it is still a stealing.
As for “trying” to label copyright infringement as a crime, I did not do that, I just stated that it is unlawful. (I do not know if it is a crime, but likely is). It is simple fact that the current law of the land is such that you can be penalized for copyright infringement. And in fact I stated it could have been different, that we could have different laws. I also stated that copyright violation is NOT a stealing, despite of the fact that you deprive the creator of the potential revenue. That’s simply because you do not take anything from a person. Just because you deprived somebody from potential revenue does not make it illegal or even immoral. There are plenty examples of completely moral and legal ways to deprive others from potential revenue, for example, business competition. If you win a contract, you deprived your competitors from potential revenue.
So let me reiterate my position stated here in this thread: copyright violation is illegal. By law of the land. I did not claim that it is immoral. I did not claim that it should continue to be illegal. (I did not claim the opposite either).
Because you can’t usually take something by accident. If you did, and you could reasonably demonstrate that it wasn’t intentional (rather than just saying “oh I didn’t know it was in my pocket”), then you might not be convicted of theft.
You’re right, you didn’t say that. I apologise, I lost track of who I was replying to in this long thread (I wish Lemmy would give you a ?context=3000 thing like reddit did).
Copyright infringement is indeed illegal, in any form. It is a civil offense at the base level, meaning the rightsholder has to prosecute it themselves, however it can escalate to a criminal offense if certain conditions are met. This never used to be the case, back when all the Napster trials happened it was only ever a civil offense, however over the last decade or so media companies have been successful in lobbying the government and changing the law. I just hope they don’t manage to change it further - rights like the right to record live TV on video were hard won and shouldn’t be undermined.
Ok, I do not think we have disagreements.