When it comes to Intel Management Engine, I actually think it’s not a threat if you neutralize it. I mean to just set the HAP bit on it. Because if that isn’t enough then that means all computers in the world which use Intel CPU can be accessed by NSA but if NSA had this much power then it seems obvious that they aren’t using it and why wouldn’t they use it?
There’s a github project to neutralize/disbale Intel ME: https://github.com/corna/me_cleaner Disable is overwriting intel ME as much as possible with zeros, leaving only a little remaining to be able to boot the computer. The newer the intel chips are, the less likely it is to be able to disable it. But all chip sets can be neutralized which means to set the HAP bit which is an official feature. In theory we can’t actually trust the HAP bit to really disable intel ME permanently. It’s more like asking Intel to do what they have promised because it’s proprietary. But I think it really does permanently disable it because otherwise NSA would be abusing this power.
That’s why I think the newer laptop models are better because it’s probably not necessary to disable, it’s enough to just neutralize withthe HAP bit. And with a newer modern laptop they can have open source Embedded Controller firmware which is better than proprietary Embedded Controller firmware.
I’m interested to hear what you think as well.
I think that a lot of the IntelME stuff is what people would typically call a conspiracy theory, not like a theory of a conspiracy, but rather where the conspiracy is largely invented for the purpose of being scared or angry, or for attention from others who get scared or angry. Obviously not all of it is, and there are people who do research it, but the videos about it that you usually see on YouTube, most of them are like this.
The thing is that intelME isn’t like a government conspiracy where there isn’t much if any tangible evidence for it, IntelME is physically installed on millions upon millions of Intel PCs around the world, so it’s very easy to test the myths and claims by sacrificing some of these Intel computers. The fact though that most of the people making claims seem to not want to do that, suggests that they don’t think it’s as big a problem as they say it is. There are few people who have tested it though, a notable example from 34C3 where they found that it’s actually much more boring. Honestly the idea that people say it cracks Wifi passwords, or exchanges data home with a server, all this stuff people claim can be easily tested, even analyzing the network packets from a PC to see if it actually phones home when it’s off (can do that by probing an Ethernet cable and capturing the signals externally. The reason I claim the IntelME stiff is a conspiracy is because most of the people making the claims resist investigation, the same way that Flat earth theories and Lizard people theories resist investigation. My example of probing the network cable? Yeah I proposed that to someone already and they claimed IntelME would know the Ethernet is being probed, when I inquired how I was given many nonsensical claims, from microphone listening to talking to IntelME on another computer skewing the results, can’t make this shit up.
So to summarize, a lot of the claims are unsubstantiated claims, which could be easily proven or disproven due to easy access to IntelME based systems, but isn’t because the people making the claims can’t be bothered, and to top it all off many of them simply make arguments to resist investigation of IntelME in the first place, just like classical bad-faith conspiracy theories, and actual investigations like the one shown as 34C3 are swept under the rug. I don’t think IntelME doesn’t have issues or that it isn’t a security risk, it is like any firmware, but the sensationalized claims made about it regularly online don’t hold water, and the people making them should be called out for perpetrating conspiracy theories without merit. I’d leave some links to them but I don’t know if that’s allowed here, could be considered harassment.
I choose not to think about it or include it in my mental threat model, the same way I choose to not worry about thermonuclear warheads.
If there’s some exploitable backdoor and Intel gets owned, we’re all boned and there’s nothing we can really do about it. I don’t have anti-ballistic-missile systems, and I also don’t have the capability to make an entire hardware/firmware/os from scratch.
So instead focus on the things you can control and are more likely to happen. Don’t plan for doomsday, plan for every day.
I would go on eBay and buy a Libreboot machine from 2009 and prior (X200, T500, etc.) These systems have 100% no blobs in the firmware and can have the IME fully disabled. I use these as my daily and I’m fine.
Most people need more than a brick for their daily.
100% disagree that “most people” need more than a brick.
I mean, sure, but to be honest, I think most people just browse the web. They open Google Chrome, and that’s basically all they know. Some don’t even know what OS they’re using. I would say that’s at least 40% of computer users. I think they’re just unaware that there are other options, like the ones I listed above. Honestly, it’s not their fault; Libreboot and GNU/Linux aren’t mainstream yet. I really don’t see why you would need a powerful machine unless you’re a gamer or work in computer graphics, etc.
You’re not wrong, but for those who don’t use their machines to make money in these fields, think about the freedom you’ve lost. Consider all the things that make you who you are, being entirely known by someone you never consented to give information to. I just think it’s sad that most people don’t care, but I do, and I will keep fighting for it.
I gave up gaming, I stopped wasting time and started getting more done. It really just gives me the freedom to do other things. When people say “user freedom,” it’s not just about the software; it’s about having control over one’s life.
There is a sort of hidden beauty in free software. It might seem boring, but that’s kind of the point! Go outside, read books, enjoy life, and live in the moment. I encourage everyone to do the same.
I gave up gaming, I stopped wasting time and started getting more done. It really just gives me the freedom to do other things. When people say “user freedom,” it’s not just about the software; it’s about having control over one’s life.
This is cope. Gaming is not a waste of time. Pretending like legitimate and common use cases being unavailable on free hard/software is a plus won’t do anyone any good. If you don’t want to game that’s fine. Lots of people do and it’s no different than some other useless hobby most people have.
You don’t have control over whether you can game if with the hardware you have.
It was more of a personal reflection for myself, rather than saying gaming is a waste of time universally. I see how you interpreted it that way, I should’ve phrased it a bit better.
Except nuclear weapons have only been used twice in war, and IME is probably used all the time
IMHO Intel ME or the AMD equivalent are only relevant for state level targeted attacks. It wouldn’t be wise for them to waste it on the small fries and risk having some snoopy I-have-nothing-better-to-do-with-my-life security researcher find some attack payloads.
Of course you are right to be worried and think about it. Right now the best you can do is coreboot, it allows you to disable it.
If you want to counter that risk the best is to get a computer like the nitropads (coreboot and only open source firmware, qubeos on top) https://www.nitrokey.com/news/2020/nitropad-secure-laptop-unique-tamper-detection or the ones of system76 After that, it’s no use worrying too much. You could as well be hit be hit in a car crash, a seism or a tsunami could also hit you city. Don’t think about it too much, just have a small plan so you are not too lost if the black swan comes for you.
Open source is not enough. It needs to be entirely free software. I recommend buying a Libreboot laptop from before 2009, they can fully disable/remove the IME and have a 100% free BIOS firmware (anything supported device with a Core Duo processor basically).
Thanks! I dug in and just found out that you can buy libreboot computers with Intel ME disabled and support the libreboot project on https://minifree.org/
They actually have an interesting selection.
It is a huge threat just like any low level firmware. However, there isn’t much you can do
Buying other hardware that you (well… not me ;) can inspect and verify, e.g RISC?
For now the performances are pretty terrible BUT one can imagine, assuming they have the right discipline and mental model doing what’s actually personal on a verifiable processor, e.g browsing and reading emails, and what’s not, e.g watching a TV show on another machine with CPU/GPU with an unverifiable architecture.
PS: I have a Precursor and a Banana Pi BPI-F3 with SpacemiT K1 8 core RISC-V chip and that’s the main idea behind them both, i.e knowing, as a community, how it works all the way down.
How do you want to verify a RISC core not doing something funny?
The same way you would do it with a black box while optionally taking as many shortcuts as one is comfortable with by virtue of assuming having a better understanding of it’s been built?
Get it audited by tools, e.g OneSpin, or people, e.g Bunnie, that one trusts?
I’m not saying it’s intrinsically safer than other architectures but it is at least more inspectable and, for people who do value trust for whatever, can be again federated.
I assume if you do ask the question you are skeptical about it so curious to know what you believe is a better alternative and why.
I mean can’t they just audit a version that doesn’t have a backdoor/snoops. Verifying against silicon is probably very hard.
I imagine it’s like everything else, you can only realistically verify against a random sample. It’s like trucks passing a border, they should ALL be checked but in practice only few gets checked and punished with the hope that punishment will deter others.
Here if 1 chip is checked for 1 million produced and there is a single problem with it, being a backdoor or “just” a security flaw that is NOT present due to the original design, then the trust in the company producing them is shattered. Nobody who can afford alternatives will want to work with them.
I imagine in a lot of situations the economical risk is not worth it. Even if say a state actor does commission a backdoor to be added and thus tell the producing company they’ll cover their losses, as soon as the news is out nobody will even use the chips so even for a state actor it doesn’t work.
Thats true, but that sadly won’t help against a state forcing a company to put these things into the silicon. Not saying they do rn, but its a real possibility.
The NSA tries incredibly hard to not make public which of the many many options in their toolbox are in active use at any given time. Not sure anyone outside the org can say for sure what they are and aren’t using.
Just restrict network access (both in and out) with proper (trusted) hardware firewall. It’s much safer that relying on disabling / configuring etc. You can’t attack what you can’t reach (directly or in reverse).
I don’t have experience with that yet. Are you talking about a PI hole? Can you give a little idea on how to make such firewall rules? Because I want to have a laptop with many VMs or Qubes and each VM has different firewall rules. An email qube would only allow connection to the email server. Maybe one of the safe browsing VMs would only allow connections to the websites I typically visit. The unsafe VM maybe to everything except for known bad IPs/domains.
And NSA and other potential adversaries most likely have access to at least one domain that isn’t blocked by firewall.
idk, never worried about it but my main computer doesn’t have it so I just passively use that for important things
Why do you think the NSA is targeting you?
Crowdstrike didn’t target anyone either. Yet, a mistake in code that privileged, resulted in massive outages. Intel ME runs at even higher privileges, in even more devices.
I am opposed to stuff like kernel level code, exactly for that reason. Mistakes can be just as harmful as malice, but both are parts of human nature. The software we design should protect us from ourselves, not expose us to more risk.
There is no such thing as a back door that “good guys” can access, but the bad guys cannot. Intel ME is exactly that, a permanent back door into basically every system. A hack of ME would take down basically all cyber infrastructure.
precisely. a few years ago i thought people will become more used to cyberspace and at some point revolt against digital blackboxes as much as if the builders or housing agents would put actual blackboxes into people’s homes. but no, digital literacy is going down, i guess the newest generation doesn’t even know that we had start menus without candy crush ads at some point 😔
NSA is infamous for illegal and unconstitutional mass surveillance.
Why do you think the NSA isn’t targeting you?
Because your actual threat is most likely passive government surveillance rather than targeted attacks?
How is it not both? Passive government surviellence can lead to targeted attacks.
Yeah, but the powerful, expensive exploits are not spent on average people - they’re for the important targets.
It isn’t that the NSA is going to target us, it’s that they could target us.
I genuinely believe the NSA et al is targeting those who attempt to avoid all targeting more than the average person. It’s difficult to avoid being tracked, it’s nearly impossible to additionally blend in with an unsuspicious façade. Might as well become a secret agent if you’re capable of avoiding the NSA’s gaze.
