I find this news disconcerting coming from such a large instance so early on. Many of the criticisms of Lemmy I’ve been fighting against on Reddit have had to do with defederation and the possibility of getting cut off from your favorite communities on your main account. I handwaved that away as being extremely unlikely save for the exception of NSFW or extreme political content. But this news has taken me quite by surprise. Perhaps I should have seen it coming given the community Beehaw is trying to foster.
This really makes me wonder what will happen to instances that make this decision. Will their communities diminish in favor of the more accessible ones? Will this decision hurt Beehaw in the long run? What does this mean for the Fediverse in the near future when fighting against its detractors has been such an uphill battle?
Thoughts?
I’ve read the post: my take on it is that there’s not enough moderation tools, and the only one that really works against servers with open registration is defederation.
Don’t the admins create all the communities there? So, instead of spreading the moderation role it’s concentrated amongst the 4 admin? Seems like they just bit off more than they could chew.
yeah that’ll never work. Even with reddit… the idea is that you build an instance for people to build communities. You set instance wide rules and the mods of said communities have to adhear to and enforce them or they lose their community.
Everyone running an instance is going to have to adopt this methodology or they’ll be overwhelmed in 2 seconds flat. The internet is big and with lemmy getting popularity it’s not going to get eaiser from here. Even with tools, 4 people can’t moderate a ton of communities.
I know this is an unpopular move for many Fediverse users including Beehaw. I support this move by the Beehaw admins because they are overworked enough managing the site, they don’t have the energy to be constantly chasing trolls spamming accounts posting harmful posts and messages onto their community.
They have a stated ethos, and they should do whatever necessary to be able to keep up with the growing user base. Of course it will stunt their growth but between pursuing growth and keeping the vibe on that instance, they choose the vibe and I respect that decision.
Kinda glad I chose a lower key instance in terms of ideology and size (lemmy.ca). But it would be nice to have a single log in associated with the full fediverse.
This kerfuffle is not only hurting Beehaw, but also Lemmy as a whole, and even Kbin. Before Kbin’s cloudflare stuff, my Fediverse news feed experience was fantastic. Being able to read, post, and comment from anywhere is a really neat feature, and I’ve since found that I can post to Lemmy communities from Mastodon. Now we’re back to splitting everything up again.
Hot take: I think Fediverse won’t truly take off until logins are decoupled from instances. Get rid of the unique logins per-server and it won’t matter where you go, how active a server is, or who has a grudge against you for whatever reason. You’ll lose access to a space, sure, but you won’t have to move to another server and create yet another account on someone else’s server with no guarantee that you can remove or export your data…
I wonder how separating logins from instances would work from a programming standpoint. People’s accounts need to be hosted on servers somewhere, so it raises some really interesting questions when the topic of defederation and drama like this comes up. For example, the Beehaw admins are running a server somewhere. If we decouple accounts from instances, then my assumption is that we’re randomly assigning accounts to servers. So that leads to the possibility of the Beehaw admins hosting an avowed fascist on their server by the design of Lemmy as a whole. I’m sure they would probably take issue with that. Beyond that, who has the control to ban spam/abusive/illegal accounts from the platform as a whole? If someone is going around posting child porn or something else illegal, surely we need to have a way to remove them from all of Lemmy. If it’s the server owner where the account was assigned then that raises some really weird questions about their control.
Another theoretical structure for this would be having two types of servers - user servers and community servers. Then users can still choose their server admin, but it would be divorced from any restrictions a community server puts up against other servers. But then what happens when an avowed fascist creates their own user server and won’t ban troubling accounts? Then that raises questions of whether a community can ban a user server, which kind of brings us back to square one…
We almost had decentralized logins with OpenID. I remember the push. It started seeing more widespread usage in the spaces I visited at the time, and even Google is/was an OpenID provider. Facebook and their “Login with Facebook” nonsense took things backwards when other vendors wanted to be a
data trackerlogin provider, also.With the ban evasion scenario you mentioned, having something like OpenID would give you an immutable ID number that can be used anywhere. Bans and blocks would go according to that ID, and evasion would require a new account. I think that would be a good middle ground for data privacy. It does make law enforcement’s job harder, though. Which does take us back to square one when it comes to removal of content, especially illegal content.
I am actually reaching the end of my knowledge on the subject in the following, so if anything after this is flat-out wrong with the technologies listed, I’d love some corrections.
If we go purely theoretical with existing tools, a blockchain would ideally assign those unique IDs. That’s a username and account creation date. GPG to sign each request (the second factor), and the entered password with the signature would decrypt an encrypted blob on IPFS with the requested information, similar to how Storj DCS stores data in encrypted buckets. Enter the wrong password, you get an empty bucket. Password recovery becomes an issue at that point, but one really should be using a password manager, passphrase, or hardware key these days, anyway.
Or use it as a feature and increase overall privacy by using a different password for each unique data blob shared with a service you’re authenticating with. It won’t matter, because your ID won’t change. For law enforcement, that does make things exponentially more difficult, maybe if you store the successful login attempts on the blockchain with the metadata that they claim to obtain from companies, it might work? There does have to be a balance between transparency and privacy.
Feels like a simple method would be a login provider that is related to the government. The gov have the best way to identify you and prove that you are who you are. That’s how you would get one unique ID that cannot be evaded by simply creating a new account.
Although, if you get banned from a community, there would be no way to get back in it because your gov id would be banned. Maybe the ban appeal could be more official instead of a letter to a random mod and hope you get an answer, hell, why not judiciarice the whole ban appeal thing so that you do have real recourse if you ever get banned for no good reason, a bit like when you get fired from a job.
Food for thought…
From what (admittedly little) I know about the fediverse I can’t see this being a good decision for Bee’s long term growth. I respect their stance but I simply think there isn’t enough content for small groups to sustain yet. Reddit thrives on a newsfeed style experience, if there’s nothing to scroll people won’t stay. The only reason I’m here is because I can scroll everything in all, which is how I found this post, for example.
I mean, “long term growth” isn’t desirable. Growth isn’t sustainable. If they have a critical mass of community, then there is nothing that says they need to grow until they destroy themselves.
Long term growth is necessary to keep any online community alive. Not necessarily accelerating growth. But if a community has less members coming in than the ones who leave over time it will eventually die, no matter what platform it’s on.
Growth doesn’t nessisarily mean your userbase is growing. It can also mean replacing users lost to attrition.
I agree. The all new feed with federation is the only thing that has enough content for me as well. I could see users moving away from all the involved servers or maybe just beehaw. There are still a lot of instances that link with beehaw, lemmy.world and shitjustworks so you can see everything.
Worth noting though that if this causes a migration away from beehaw.org, lemmy.world, and sh.itjust.works it’ll just lead to another instance growing to the size that beehaw.org seems ready to defederate from. It seems their primary issue is those instances not requiring any kind of moderation for signups and I would argue that’s one of the factors that creates larger instances.
