Mandatory military service and nuclear weapons may be new ideas for Canadians, but other friendly democracies have been using these strategies for decades.
A very reasonable position. I for one supoort this wholeheartedly. Sensible civilian firearms laws support in a symbiotic way the Canadian military. A wider body of markmens who maintain profficiency after service. It also supports a domestic small arms industry that can switch to military small arms when needed and pivot back. Canadian jobs, serving Canadian defense, using Canadian materials. It’s also an export market.
I love the idea of 2 years mandatory military or civil service. Around the end of high school. Engagement, development and readiness of a much wider spectrum of society in common service to each other. There are very very few downsides.
Edit: I’m also a strong proponent of nukes. Nothing outrageous. Just a minimum viable second strike capability like the UK. Just enough to tell hungry eyes to fuck off and look elsewhere.
There are very, very many downsides to mandatory enlistment. Fuck that to hell and back. I will never use a gun in service of a state, nor perform any other function in support of the military of a state. Let alone fucking nukes??? What is the point in resisting a military state if we create our own at home anyway?? So that we hang a red and white flag over the bodies of dead 18 year olds who had literally no fucking choice in going to war and dying for nothing? I genuinely can’t tell if you’re joking or not.
When facing a fascist and authoritarian regime, it comes down to a very simple question:
Do you want to die on your knees, or do you want to die on your feet?
There really isn’t any kind of a third option, unless you want to turn traitor and become a collaborator. Which I don’t think you’re going to be given that option.
I see you’re trans. I’m trans too - and if a foreign power like a fascist America comes to bring us “freedom” I sure as hell am picking up gun if I’m fit to, or whatever else is needed. It doesn’t have to be in service of a state, what about your community?? Pacifism is such a bullshit ideology.
You seem to have missed the part where I’m an anarchist. Never said I was anti gun nor a pacifist. I am not having a gun pointed at my head and telling me to pick up a gun and march to the orders of a military. I would absolutely defend my community, i am also not being compelled by force into the service of a national military. Nobody should be obligated by force to participate in a war.
What happened to all the anti-authoritarians in the “fuck China” thread from the other day? I guess when it’s Canadian authoritarianism it’s good??
We’re ideological allies in so far as defending queer rights. Even in so far as being willing to personally involve myself in defending them, little that someone of my physiology can do. That isn’t the same thing as conscription though.
I am not advocating. However, we should all understand that there are many countries with mandatory military service that do not use them in war.
In addition to military preparedness and defence, it can be an opportunity for greater citizen engagement and to significantly invest in training and skills. This has social and economic benefits beyond war.
Sweden has mandatory military service. How many wars have they started in your lifetime.
Again, not taking a position. Just pointing out that mandatory military service does not have to translate into young men in body bags.
I’m anti authoritarian, and that necessarily includes compulsory enlistment. We can also invest in training and skill development without forcing people under threat of state violence to join a military. I am also opposed to the draft no matter where it is still practiced. Anti-draft riots were some of the earliest workers rights movements.
They seem to be proposing the sort of normal military service that used to be fairly common, although exactly universal in peacetime. The sort of marksmaship that they’re describing exists even in countries with strict gun control like South Korea, Germany and Britain. It pays off in spades in cases where war comes home and civilians must be relied upon to defend against invasion.
Some of the European countries phased their mandatory conscription programs out as recently as the 90’s-00’s, and it’s maybe not the ones you might first assume who had them in the first place - the Danes, Swedes, Finns, the Swiss, etc. Others still have conscription in case of war, but that’s not so unusual at all, and may not mean front-line posts for many who’re unfit for the duty for one reason or the other.
Many roles in a nation’s military are far from the front, everything from administrative, intelligence analysis, supplies and warehousing, medical roles - there’s a pretty wide spread of tasks beyond holding a gun and firing it at your nation’s enemies.
Yes, and I also think that it is wrong in all of those places, too. South Korea is one of the worst countries in the world in terms of the rights and equality of its citizens. It is also a turbo capitalist military state. Yes, I absolutely think it’s wrong there, too.
I’m an anarchist. I’m anti involuntary servitude in all it’s forms and I will never be a part of the military or perform duties in support of one. I would own a gun for my own sake, for the sake of my family and my community, but I will absolutely never be an agent of state violence. There is no room whatsoever for accommodation here. This would be a fucking nightmare scenario.
It’s a laudable philosophical stance, but if you’re eligible for conscription in whatever country you call home, you’d better have a fallback plan, a cache of supplies, and place to hide out before fleeing the country in times of war. Armies don’t fuck around with that shit, they’ll either jail or execute able-bodied people refusing military service. Best of luck to you.
Good thing our country doesn’t have a draft. And I will absolutely fight back with all that I have against one. If it comes to it they can shoot me. It’s get shot by fascists or get shot by authoritarians. I’ll live openly and proudly no matter who points a gun at me.
adjective
Of, relating to, or befitting a citizen or citizens.
“civil duties.”
Of or relating to citizens and their interrelations with one another or with the state.
“government agencies concerned with civil affairs.”
Of ordinary citizens or ordinary community life as distinguished from the military or the ecclesiastical.
“married in a civil ceremony at city hall.”
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition • More at Wordnik
Does not change my response. I’m an anarchist. I am and will always be resolutely opposed to all forms of involuntary servitude especially those ones which obligate you into the service of a military.
Also only a few countries offer a truly non-military community service. Most civil service involves supportive efforts towards the military.
What a weird response. Primary and secondary education are mandatory for everyone in Canada. This is mandatory CIVIC service. High School in many provinces have mandatory volunteerism in your community. E.g. Ontario requires 40 hours of volunteering.
We’re proposing 2 years additional paid service. Think of it like adding 2 years coop program. Not entirely unlike Cégep in QC, but not in the classroom, but in the workplace. Each individual could pick their program. Military service would be one possibility where THOSE WHO WILLINGLY CHOOSE IT are basically a fulltime Canadian Forces Reservist, or a newly formed Civil Defense unit for their coop term.
For conscientious objectors like you, you can select CIVIL service. Could be in daycares, nursing homes, hospitals, agriculture, homebuilding, care for the homeless, addiction treatment, filling potholes, disaster relief, tree planting, maintaining national or provincial parks, forest firefighting, disaster relief, any number of government projects etc…
No one is asking you to pick up a gun. No one is asking you to fight. No one is asking you to wear a uniform or get a haircut. Your assignment is chosen by you subject to qualifications and availability/demmand of the role. Like Katimavik, it could also be an opportunity to travel to another province and learn more and experience all that Canada is. Your time is paid so you are not a slave.
This is a win/win proposition.
Hiding behind calling yourself an anarchist, while enjoying the rights and freedoms of Canadian democracy is hypocritical. If you want to live your values you could try moving to any number of failed states and lawless lands. I hear Mogadishu is lovely in the spring.
Education has direct benefits for literally every single aspect of society. It also is flawed in Canada and serves a large part in the means by which working class people are indoctrinated into nationalism and anti-socialist and anti-revolutionary politics.
Civil service is only a thing in select countries. The majority of countries that have mandatory enlistment do NOT ALLOW you to participate in any kind of service that isn’t directly associated with the military. I am not a conscientious objecter, I am an anti-statist anarchist, and I am against involuntary servitude in every single way that it exists. I have no moral qualms about violence being used to further the well-being of the working class. I am anti nationalist in every single possible way and absolutely resolutely opposed to the draft. You’re never going to get me to believe that compelling anyone UNDER THREAT OF STATE VIOLENCE to PERFORM LABOR is morally justifiable or beneficial. The draft was the beginning point of many aspects of the modern workers’ rights movement. It is wrong no matter where it shows up. One of the most abhorrent aspects of society is the military. I’m a woman, have a look sometime at how often women get r*ed while in the military.
I’d happily pick up a gun. I am pro-gun ownership. I am anti military in every single conceivable way. Absolutely I would shoot nazis if they came here and I had weapons with which to shoot them. But no, a thousand times I will never join a military. It is indefensible to force civilians under threat of state violence into involuntary servitude. It definitionally isn’t voluntary. It’s wrong, wrong in every single way.
To your last bit, typical of anti working class conservatives like yourself. What’s your response to native communities? Do you think that native Canadians should be forced under threat of state violence to join the Canadian military or otherwise be forced to do involuntary labor for the Canadian state?
I am living my values. My values are anti authoritarianism and pro workers rights. You clearly don’t even know what anarchists are. Every major workers’ rights movement in history has had large participation by anarchists. Anarchists are the ones who fought back against Stalinists in Spain and Ukraine. Anarchists were the primary force behind the workers’ rights revolutions at the end of the 19th century. My anarchist beliefs are foundationally a part of my beliefs in the safety and well-being of working class people. I am not an egotistic isolationist. I am saying that categorically pointing a gun at someone and forcing them to do something is wrong. It’s always wrong. Threatening violators with prison time is wrong. The draft is wrong, and it is one of the best parts about this country that we do not have one.
Ok. I get it. You are irrational. You keep bringing up militarism while I have refuted it over and over again. That is not what anyone but you is talking about. Public education is mandatory and you are ok with that because it benefits the individual and society, but adding a 2 year PAID COOP in any number of civil projects of your choosing is now military conscription under threat of state violence? This is irrational.
Show me the lists of state violence for kids who play hookie? Where are the prison camps or mass graves or any other evidence of state violence against students? Is tree planting or community building nationalism? Is a paid coop in a field of your choosing slavery? Are you for real?
I don’t know who hurt you, but I’m sorry it happened to you. You have some PTSD sounding ramblings invoking ghosts of something or somewhere or someone that has NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT IS BEING DISCUSSED HERE. You keep pulling these ghosts back into the conversation like a trauma response. It is preventing you from objectively seeing what is being discussed and participating rationally. You talk about the worst examples of what other countries have done like that’s the only option, rather than imagine what is possible and desirable for us all in a time of crisis. Canada is in a crisis. You also appear to be in one of your own.
For the record, I am not conservative. I’m progressive, pro-labour, class conscious NDP voter capable of complex thought, subtlety and nuance. No bigotry here. I’m fighting for a Canada that rejects American privatization for a return to Canadian standards of a mixed market economy where well regulated private enterprise thrives where it can and social enterprise thrives where it must.
I love Canada. I love even more the vision of what Canada can be when community works together.
A very reasonable position. I for one supoort this wholeheartedly. Sensible civilian firearms laws support in a symbiotic way the Canadian military. A wider body of markmens who maintain profficiency after service. It also supports a domestic small arms industry that can switch to military small arms when needed and pivot back. Canadian jobs, serving Canadian defense, using Canadian materials. It’s also an export market.
I love the idea of 2 years mandatory military or civil service. Around the end of high school. Engagement, development and readiness of a much wider spectrum of society in common service to each other. There are very very few downsides.
Edit: I’m also a strong proponent of nukes. Nothing outrageous. Just a minimum viable second strike capability like the UK. Just enough to tell hungry eyes to fuck off and look elsewhere.
There are very, very many downsides to mandatory enlistment. Fuck that to hell and back. I will never use a gun in service of a state, nor perform any other function in support of the military of a state. Let alone fucking nukes??? What is the point in resisting a military state if we create our own at home anyway?? So that we hang a red and white flag over the bodies of dead 18 year olds who had literally no fucking choice in going to war and dying for nothing? I genuinely can’t tell if you’re joking or not.
When facing a fascist and authoritarian regime, it comes down to a very simple question:
Do you want to die on your knees, or do you want to die on your feet?
There really isn’t any kind of a third option, unless you want to turn traitor and become a collaborator. Which I don’t think you’re going to be given that option.
I see you’re trans. I’m trans too - and if a foreign power like a fascist America comes to bring us “freedom” I sure as hell am picking up gun if I’m fit to, or whatever else is needed. It doesn’t have to be in service of a state, what about your community?? Pacifism is such a bullshit ideology.
You seem to have missed the part where I’m an anarchist. Never said I was anti gun nor a pacifist. I am not having a gun pointed at my head and telling me to pick up a gun and march to the orders of a military. I would absolutely defend my community, i am also not being compelled by force into the service of a national military. Nobody should be obligated by force to participate in a war.
What happened to all the anti-authoritarians in the “fuck China” thread from the other day? I guess when it’s Canadian authoritarianism it’s good??
k.
We’re ideological allies in so far as defending queer rights. Even in so far as being willing to personally involve myself in defending them, little that someone of my physiology can do. That isn’t the same thing as conscription though.
I am not advocating. However, we should all understand that there are many countries with mandatory military service that do not use them in war.
In addition to military preparedness and defence, it can be an opportunity for greater citizen engagement and to significantly invest in training and skills. This has social and economic benefits beyond war.
Sweden has mandatory military service. How many wars have they started in your lifetime.
Again, not taking a position. Just pointing out that mandatory military service does not have to translate into young men in body bags.
I’m anti authoritarian, and that necessarily includes compulsory enlistment. We can also invest in training and skill development without forcing people under threat of state violence to join a military. I am also opposed to the draft no matter where it is still practiced. Anti-draft riots were some of the earliest workers rights movements.
They seem to be proposing the sort of normal military service that used to be fairly common, although exactly universal in peacetime. The sort of marksmaship that they’re describing exists even in countries with strict gun control like South Korea, Germany and Britain. It pays off in spades in cases where war comes home and civilians must be relied upon to defend against invasion.
Some of the European countries phased their mandatory conscription programs out as recently as the 90’s-00’s, and it’s maybe not the ones you might first assume who had them in the first place - the Danes, Swedes, Finns, the Swiss, etc. Others still have conscription in case of war, but that’s not so unusual at all, and may not mean front-line posts for many who’re unfit for the duty for one reason or the other.
Many roles in a nation’s military are far from the front, everything from administrative, intelligence analysis, supplies and warehousing, medical roles - there’s a pretty wide spread of tasks beyond holding a gun and firing it at your nation’s enemies.
Yes, and I also think that it is wrong in all of those places, too. South Korea is one of the worst countries in the world in terms of the rights and equality of its citizens. It is also a turbo capitalist military state. Yes, I absolutely think it’s wrong there, too.
I’m an anarchist. I’m anti involuntary servitude in all it’s forms and I will never be a part of the military or perform duties in support of one. I would own a gun for my own sake, for the sake of my family and my community, but I will absolutely never be an agent of state violence. There is no room whatsoever for accommodation here. This would be a fucking nightmare scenario.
It’s a laudable philosophical stance, but if you’re eligible for conscription in whatever country you call home, you’d better have a fallback plan, a cache of supplies, and place to hide out before fleeing the country in times of war. Armies don’t fuck around with that shit, they’ll either jail or execute able-bodied people refusing military service. Best of luck to you.
Good thing our country doesn’t have a draft. And I will absolutely fight back with all that I have against one. If it comes to it they can shoot me. It’s get shot by fascists or get shot by authoritarians. I’ll live openly and proudly no matter who points a gun at me.
Military OR CIVIL service. Reading isn’t for everyone.
Wanna give it another read through?
Civil: /sĭv′əl/
adjective Of, relating to, or befitting a citizen or citizens. “civil duties.” Of or relating to citizens and their interrelations with one another or with the state. “government agencies concerned with civil affairs.” Of ordinary citizens or ordinary community life as distinguished from the military or the ecclesiastical. “married in a civil ceremony at city hall.” The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition • More at Wordnik
Does not change my response. I’m an anarchist. I am and will always be resolutely opposed to all forms of involuntary servitude especially those ones which obligate you into the service of a military.
Also only a few countries offer a truly non-military community service. Most civil service involves supportive efforts towards the military.
What a weird response. Primary and secondary education are mandatory for everyone in Canada. This is mandatory CIVIC service. High School in many provinces have mandatory volunteerism in your community. E.g. Ontario requires 40 hours of volunteering.
We’re proposing 2 years additional paid service. Think of it like adding 2 years coop program. Not entirely unlike Cégep in QC, but not in the classroom, but in the workplace. Each individual could pick their program. Military service would be one possibility where THOSE WHO WILLINGLY CHOOSE IT are basically a fulltime Canadian Forces Reservist, or a newly formed Civil Defense unit for their coop term.
For conscientious objectors like you, you can select CIVIL service. Could be in daycares, nursing homes, hospitals, agriculture, homebuilding, care for the homeless, addiction treatment, filling potholes, disaster relief, tree planting, maintaining national or provincial parks, forest firefighting, disaster relief, any number of government projects etc…
No one is asking you to pick up a gun. No one is asking you to fight. No one is asking you to wear a uniform or get a haircut. Your assignment is chosen by you subject to qualifications and availability/demmand of the role. Like Katimavik, it could also be an opportunity to travel to another province and learn more and experience all that Canada is. Your time is paid so you are not a slave.
This is a win/win proposition.
Hiding behind calling yourself an anarchist, while enjoying the rights and freedoms of Canadian democracy is hypocritical. If you want to live your values you could try moving to any number of failed states and lawless lands. I hear Mogadishu is lovely in the spring.
Education has direct benefits for literally every single aspect of society. It also is flawed in Canada and serves a large part in the means by which working class people are indoctrinated into nationalism and anti-socialist and anti-revolutionary politics.
Civil service is only a thing in select countries. The majority of countries that have mandatory enlistment do NOT ALLOW you to participate in any kind of service that isn’t directly associated with the military. I am not a conscientious objecter, I am an anti-statist anarchist, and I am against involuntary servitude in every single way that it exists. I have no moral qualms about violence being used to further the well-being of the working class. I am anti nationalist in every single possible way and absolutely resolutely opposed to the draft. You’re never going to get me to believe that compelling anyone UNDER THREAT OF STATE VIOLENCE to PERFORM LABOR is morally justifiable or beneficial. The draft was the beginning point of many aspects of the modern workers’ rights movement. It is wrong no matter where it shows up. One of the most abhorrent aspects of society is the military. I’m a woman, have a look sometime at how often women get r*ed while in the military.
I’d happily pick up a gun. I am pro-gun ownership. I am anti military in every single conceivable way. Absolutely I would shoot nazis if they came here and I had weapons with which to shoot them. But no, a thousand times I will never join a military. It is indefensible to force civilians under threat of state violence into involuntary servitude. It definitionally isn’t voluntary. It’s wrong, wrong in every single way.
To your last bit, typical of anti working class conservatives like yourself. What’s your response to native communities? Do you think that native Canadians should be forced under threat of state violence to join the Canadian military or otherwise be forced to do involuntary labor for the Canadian state?
I am living my values. My values are anti authoritarianism and pro workers rights. You clearly don’t even know what anarchists are. Every major workers’ rights movement in history has had large participation by anarchists. Anarchists are the ones who fought back against Stalinists in Spain and Ukraine. Anarchists were the primary force behind the workers’ rights revolutions at the end of the 19th century. My anarchist beliefs are foundationally a part of my beliefs in the safety and well-being of working class people. I am not an egotistic isolationist. I am saying that categorically pointing a gun at someone and forcing them to do something is wrong. It’s always wrong. Threatening violators with prison time is wrong. The draft is wrong, and it is one of the best parts about this country that we do not have one.
Ok. I get it. You are irrational. You keep bringing up militarism while I have refuted it over and over again. That is not what anyone but you is talking about. Public education is mandatory and you are ok with that because it benefits the individual and society, but adding a 2 year PAID COOP in any number of civil projects of your choosing is now military conscription under threat of state violence? This is irrational.
Show me the lists of state violence for kids who play hookie? Where are the prison camps or mass graves or any other evidence of state violence against students? Is tree planting or community building nationalism? Is a paid coop in a field of your choosing slavery? Are you for real?
I don’t know who hurt you, but I’m sorry it happened to you. You have some PTSD sounding ramblings invoking ghosts of something or somewhere or someone that has NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT IS BEING DISCUSSED HERE. You keep pulling these ghosts back into the conversation like a trauma response. It is preventing you from objectively seeing what is being discussed and participating rationally. You talk about the worst examples of what other countries have done like that’s the only option, rather than imagine what is possible and desirable for us all in a time of crisis. Canada is in a crisis. You also appear to be in one of your own.
For the record, I am not conservative. I’m progressive, pro-labour, class conscious NDP voter capable of complex thought, subtlety and nuance. No bigotry here. I’m fighting for a Canada that rejects American privatization for a return to Canadian standards of a mixed market economy where well regulated private enterprise thrives where it can and social enterprise thrives where it must.
I love Canada. I love even more the vision of what Canada can be when community works together.