?? I manage flatpaks exclusively in the terminal
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My favorite part of the linux experience is the FREEDOM, but also being talked down to for not using my freedom correctly, I should only do things a specific way or I might as well just use windows.
Because using your freedom to promote options that restrict freedom means helping to remove your freedom. But hey, what do the Linux elders know? Clearly the new people into Linux are far smarter…
You don’t have to do as they say but doing so lets you talk down to others who aren’t. So it’s a fair trade.
Flatpaks are good, especially compared to snap.
The future is atomic OS’s like silverblue, which will make heavy use of things like flatpak.
Having nails driven into my testicles is better than snap. It’s not a high bar.
Haven’t had much opportunity to use snap, what’s the problem with them?
Haven’t had much opportunity to have nails driven into my testicles.
Wanna meet? /s
For me, it’s the unrenameable, unmoveable, non-hidden snap directory in my home directory’s root that doesn’t even follow the naming convention of the other directories in there.
And also the fact that the store backend is proprietary
What everyone else has already said, plus sudden updates that nuke active applications.
> plus sudden updates that nuke active applications.This is not what’s supposed to happen. If an app installed through flatpak is active while it’s receiving an update, then the update is not supposed to affect the running application until it’s closed/restarted.Edit: Somehow I didn’t realize the concern was raised against Snap and not Flatpak.
Luckily this was about Snap.
My bad. Thank you for clarifying!
The thread is about snap and why it’s worse than flatpak.
We’re talking about snaps in contrast.
My bad. Thank you for clarifying!
Mostly start up time for me. It just takes the programs longer to launch.
Atomic distros are cool, and I’m sure they will only get more popular, but I don’t buy the idea that they’re “The” future. They have their place, but they can’t really completely replace traditional distros. Not every new thing needs to kill everything that came before it.
They have their place, but they can’t really completely replace traditional distros.
As it stands, I kinda agree. But I truly wonder to what extent we might be able to close the current gap.
This Snap comparison is the soft bigotry of low expectations
I love installing things from the CLI and prefer to only do it that way but Linux needs a single click install method for applications if it’s ever going to become a mainstream OS. The average person just wants to Google a program, hit download and install. If not that then they want to use a mobile-like App Store.
Flatpak is kind of perfect at achieving both those things
There have been GUI package managers for decades.
Oh 100% but have you tried to explain how to use one to a computer novice? Like yes, the answer is usually “they should just…” but novice users will never. With flatpak, they get an experience similar to how MacOS works and a bit like how .exes work and it Just Works™️
Edit: like I’ve had trouble showing people how to use the GNOME App Store which could not be any more simple. Anyone who has been convinced to install Linux already feels way out of their element so making everything feel as natural as possible is essential (and I mean, flatpaks are awesome anyway)
Wait how do you install flatpaks? I add the remote (if necessary) and then install it from there. That is nothing like I have ever seen on Windows (though apparently there are package managers).
OpenSUSE has OneClick install for RPMs. https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:One_Click_Install
Edit: and if you happen to download an rpm, you just double click it in the filemanager (or single click if that is your setting) and it launces the install GUI.
Its similar to how MSI file install looks…just next next finish kind of thing
For sure and I agree that should be enough but the average person is not good with computers and they don’t want to learn. They won’t understand the nuances of different distributions of Linux. Like try explaining the difference between a .deb, a .tar.gz, and a .rpm to a person who’s already hésitent about using Linux. Flatpak solves that by just having one download that any Linux install can use
Those mystical average people would probably stay on Windows, if they don’t care or cannot learn basics of other systems. Its really not hard to explain and understand, even for “average person” that there is an universal source for applications and there are packages designed and managed by your operating system. I think its important for people to learn basics and we should teach them, not dumb them down like on Windows. Soon people won’t be able to eat themselves anymore…
Appimage
Ah, that’s actually what I was thinking of in my previous comment
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Flatpak have their own set of issues. One thing is, that Flatpak applications do not integrate that easily and perfect like a native package. Either rights are to given, you need to know what rights are needed and how to set it up. Theming can be an issue, because it uses its own libraries in the Flatpak eco system instead your current distributions theme and desktop environment.
But on the other hand, they have actually a permission system and are a little bit sandbox compared to normal applications. Packages often are distributed quickly and are up to date directly from the developers, and usually are not installed with root rights.
I’m pretty much a CLI guy as well and prefer native packages (Arch based, plus the AUR). But I also use Flatpaks for various reasons, alongside with AppImages.
I’d take a well-maintained native package for my distro over a Flatpak, but sometimes, a Flatpak is just the the easiest way to get the latest version of an application working on Debian without too much tinkering - not always no tinkering, but better than nothing.
This is especially true of GIMP - Flatpak GIMP + Resynthesizer feels like the easiest way to experience GIMP these days. Same with OBS - although I have to weather the Flatpak directory structure, plugins otherwise feel easier to get working than the native package. The bundled runtimes are somewhat annoying, but I’m also not exactly hurting for storage at the moment - I could probaby do to put more of my 2 TB main SSD to use.
I usually just manage Flatpaks from the terminal, though I often have to refresh myself on application URLs. I somewhat wish one could set nicknames so they need not remember the full name.
i like it. they are very convenient, work every time, and solves the distribution problem.
If it’s a mostly self-contained app, like a game or a utility, then Flatpak is just fine. If a Flatpak needs to interact with other apps on the host or, worst case, another Flatpak it gets tricky or even impossible. From what I’ve seen though, AppImage and Snap are even worse at this.
Flatpak doesn’t support dev device access no matter what I use flatseal and all the shabang, so bottles is useless to me for a lot of the wine applications I would like to “not emulate”
Flatpaks together with “immutable” distributions, Wayland and systemd are a heresy, a crime against the UNIX principles, a disgrace in the eyes of of SED and AWK. REPENT! Save your immortal core dumps and return to the one true /home !
i had a hard time getting used to them but now i love them in mint i can switch between the package version and flatpak version and usually the fp one is more updated
On the other hand each flatpak uses >1Gb of disk where deb packages rarely require more than 100Mb
That’s not really true. It lists all the flatpak dependencies in that disk use, but a lot of those are shared, so they don’t actually use that much each if you install more than one, and the deb dependencies aren’t included at all. Flatpaks really do use more space, especially if you only have a small number of them, but it’s not as bad as that.
Nope, I was counting all dependencies, both for flatpak and apk installations.
See, I only use flatpaks sparingly for this reason, but in some cases they’re indispensable when you don’t want an application to access certain parts of your system. The sandboxing is what makes them useful, in my opinion. For everything else, there’s the deb packages.
Plus I found on my install flatpak wasn’t cleaning up the flatpaks autoinstalled for older versions of nvidia drivers, they were all still listed as dependencies. Not sure who’s to blame but that was taking up a few much needed GBs.
I agree that flatpak should just invoke
flatpak uninstall --unusedright after uninstalling a flatpak. I don’t get why it doesn’t do this automatically. Granted, some distro package managers (used to) operate somewhat similarly in that they required theautoremoveoption.I actually tried
flatpak uninstall --unusedand it didn’t remove these ones. So there’s something odd going on there. My guess is maybe Mint manually installed them through the driver manager program? That’s a wild guess, I don’t know how it works.
That’s certainly a concern for some, but I’m using like 30 GB for all the things I’ve installed, which is a lot (12 (flatpak-system), 76 (flatpak-user)) but that’s on a 2 TB drive, which amounts to like 1½% of the total available space. I don’t think that’s a bad trade.
Compared to a pure install that can run on an electric toothbrush it’s a massive pill to swallow for some.
And not many consider the environmental impact of this either. Sure storage might be cheap (not in my country but I digress) but more space still requires more storage and across thousands of computers and then millions of computers that’s not an insignificant increase. We should be increasing technological efficiency not what were doing at the moment which seems to be just throwing more power and resources at the problems.
Lucky you. My laptop has a small HD, and all that space is a problem.
Mint took a while to handle flatpak decently in the update manager, and now it’s a nice experience.
Former OS security here (I worked at an OS vendor who sold an OS or two and my job involved keeping it secure).
Fuck no.
Sorry if that makes you downvote, but it doesn’t make them safer.
Would you mind elaborating?
A few reasons security people can have to hesitate on Flatpak:
- In comparison to sticking with strictly vetted repos from the big distros like Debian, RHEL, etc., using Flathub and other sources means normalizing installing software that isn’t so strongly vetted. Flathub does at least have a review process but it’s by necessity fairly lax.
- Bundling libraries with an application means you can still be vulnerable to an exploit in some library, even if your OS vendor has already rolled out the fix, because of using Flatpak software that still loads the vulnerable version. The freedesktop runtimes at least help limit the scope of this issue but don’t eliminate it.
- The sandboxing isn’t as secure as many users might expect, which can further encourage installing untrusted software.
By a typical home user’s perspective this probably seems like nothing; in terms of security you’re still usually better off with Flatpak than installing random AUR packages, adding random PPA repos, using AppImage programs, installing a bunch of Steam games, blindly building an unfamiliar project you cloned from github, or running bash scripts you find online. But in many contexts none of that is acceptable.
I thought flatpaks were created to make packaging easier, not to solve all security issues. Still sounds like a win to me.
I mean, they added “bash scripts you find online”, which are only a problem if you don’t look them over or cannot understand them first… Their post is very much cemented in the paranoid camp of security.
Not that they’re wrong. That’s the big thing about security once you go deep enough: the computer has to work for someone, and being able to execute much at all opens up some avenues of abuse. Like securing a web based service. It has to work for someone, so of course everything is still vulnerable at some point. Usually when private keys or passwords are compromised if they’re doing things remotely correctly, but they’re still technically vulnerable at some point.
The parent comment mentions working on security for a paid OS, so looking at the perspective of something like the users of RHEL and SUSE: supply chain “paranoia” absolutely does matter a lot to enterprise users, many of which are bound by contract to specific security standards (especially when governments are involved). I noted that concerns at that level are rather meaningless to home users.
On a personal system, people generally do whatever they need to in order to get the software they want. Those things I listed are very common options for installing software outside of your distro’s repos, and all of them offer less inherent vetting than Flathub while also tampering with your system more substantially. Though most of them at least use system libraries.
they added “bash scripts you find online”, which are only a problem if you don’t look them over or cannot understand them
I would honestly expect that the vast majority of people who see installation steps including
curl [...] | sh(so common that even reputable projects like cargo/rust recommend it) simply run the command as-is without checking the downloaded script, and likewise do the same even if it’ssudo sh. That can still be more or less fine if you trust the vendor/host, its SSL certificate, and your ability to type/copy the domain without error. Even if you look at the script, that might not get you far if it happens to be a self-extracting one unless you also check its payload.
cool, thanks
I kinda like flatpaks being an option, not sure when they are the only option though.
I would be, but the promise is just broken. Let’s say you want to do the new cool thing and run Bazzite on your console gaming PC on your TV. Now you also want to watch videos that are any normal format these days or (GASP) HEVC like you could on an XBox. You install flatpak VLC because it “just plays everything” in your experience. Your experience is ruptured for both VLC and flatpak now. Flatpaks run on system .so’s actually sometimes and installing a Flatpak doesn’t mean an app “just works” like Mac or Windows…
I get the convenience, I really do, and works on every linux distro which is a plus, but I usually stay clear of them because of the bloat. Maybe that is a misconception on my part. I should preference that with the fact I use Arch (btw)…so AUR usually has everything I need.
It doesn’t even produce convenience versus just doing AUR package install, though! Nor does it actually containerize for security well! It is bloat alone with shit user experience!
Edit: to be fair I should note that VLC in Fedora recently came into conflict with Fedora nonfree blocking all updates via some 1997-level RPM jank, idk whose fault it was, but Flatpak gets you around that so it is not without use
Edit on edit: it runs and doesn’t preclude install but current VLC does not work on Fedora out of the box with ANY nonfree codecs
FP and Electron both are brutal on limited storage, so being able to pick and choose where needed can be helpful.
There are merits to using flatpaks. With flatseal application, you can fine-tune the permissions given to a certain flatpak application. The best thing is restricting internet usage.
IDK why you’re being so rage baity. Its easy to avoid flatpaks if you dont like them. Only thing I’ve ever found as an obstacle was adding the binaries to my PATH so I can launch it with dmenu_run. Otherwise my package manager works well enough.
Bonus points: Write a PKGBUILD that installs flatpaks to /opt and symlink out binaries as needed.
Just a conversation opener, relax. Only one here shaking a fist in the air is you.
You don’t have to use a meme insulting some side to just start a conversation.
Well, I heard that people who use flatpacks are libs. True?
Sorry, I just think it’s funny that Linux users get so defensive about this stuff. You really felt insulted by this?
It was clearly trying to be insulting. I don’t understand why anyone would try to start a flamewar over flatpaks.
