Hey! Thanks to the whole Reddit mess, I’ve discovered the fediverse and its increidible wonders and I’m lovin’ it :D

I’ve seen another post about karma, and after reading the comments, I can see there is a strong opinion against it (which I do share). I’d love to hear your opinions, what other method/s would you guys implement? If any ofc

      • SuperRyn@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        Tbf you can probably tell the actual numbers by looking at the % reddit shows in the corner, but that’s not very intuitive

        • scarabic@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          You can do that for Reddit posts but can you also see it for comments? It wasn’t shown in my client app but perhaps it’s visible elsewhere.

    • C3ltic@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      4
      ·
      1 year ago

      Yeah imo the real problem with reddit was that

      A: they started fudging the votes so they didn’t really matter and they could shadowban accounts from even being able to upovte/downvote

      B: stupid fucking awards could keep posts at the top even if they had like -2000

      c: fascists were gaming the system with bots anyway to push their content.

      • Sunforged@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        1 year ago

        Upvotes/downvotes are still a useful engagement metric, for instance what should appear in user feeds. Converting that engagement into long term karma encourages reposts and bad actors though so throw it out the window.

        • Cynosure@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          Honesty, I don’t think I really like upvotes and downvotes at all. My favorite system is Discourse where the only sort option is old -> new and you can provide reactions (heart, thumbs up, etc…) that don’t change the sort at all. This lets you follow the discussion as it happened & gauge engagement yourself.

      • blivet@kbin.social
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        Individual users having some sort of reputation is useful. I always thought it was handy on Reddit to be able to distinguish people I happened to disagree with from actual trolls. The latter always had pretty high negative karma scores, and it was good to know that there was no point in engaging with them.

        • Kichae@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          The thing is, high karma on Reddit doesn’t mean someone has a history of thoughtful engagement. Just as often, if not more, it means someone whose well timed with zingers on popular posts.

          And incentivising that kind of take-down behaviour actually creates toxic communities.

          • blivet@kbin.social
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            I agree with you that high karma doesn’t indicate anything besides popularity, but someone with negative karma is almost certainly either a troll or a political extremist of some sort. I do find it useful to know when I would be better off not engaging with people like that.

        • Jo@readit.buzz
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          You can check their post history? Karma doesn’t tell you anything, really. Mine went up tenfold one day just because I replied to what ended up as the top post in a top thread in a much bigger sub than those I normally post in. Some people spend all their time in big subs making short, smart remarks that get a lot of karma, others spend their time in enemy territory battling people they disagree with. Some toxic people have a lot of karma because they hang out in toxic subs.

          The problem to be solved is how to order threads. Old skool bulletin boards just bump the most recently replied one to the top. Which works well on an old skool bulletin board as long as it isn’t too large, but very badly on a big site where a few big active threads can drown out all the others.

          I don’t know what the solution is. But the numbers don’t mean anything without checking the context. Karma is useful for ordering threads/comments, and giving users a bit of dopamine when they get some attention. But there (probably) are better ways to do it.

          • Kichae@kbin.social
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            I don’t even know that karma/upvotes are good for ordering threads or comments. It just encourages gamification, group think, and snark.

            I’d say get rid of down votes, replace upvotes with emoji reacts, and sort based on reacts + replies, but that’s probably just encouraging gamification, group think, and snark, too.

            Reddit, like other centralized social networks that are trying to monetize us, prioritizes time on site and generic “engagement”. Those are what generate the most money for the company.

            They’re not what’s best for us as users.

            Maybe what we need to do is allow users to quickly and easily hide comment chains - not just collapse them, but dismiss them entirely - and allow for user-scriptable and shareable sorting algorithms. We drop down votes entirely, because they’re just used passive-aggressively anyway, make blocking users as easy as possible, with temp blocks and notification silences at the ready, and then forget about user reputation points entirely, because they’re as meaningless as Dragonball Z power levels.

        • Valdair@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          1 year ago

          This is why it’s useful at the account level. It’s also useful at the post level in order to build a sorting algorithm which raises the most engaging/important/interesting submissions to the top. Within a community it is important to help define what that community is - irrelevant and low effort content is suppressed and relevant/high-effort gets boosted. Moderators can enforce this by just removing and pinning too, but that’s almost always too unilateral, and the voting system is generally better because it’s expected that then you get a representation of how people in that community feel about it. It’s a good system.

          • jayrhacker@kbin.social
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            0
            ·
            1 year ago

            I can imagine some tweaks to help improve how karma is implemented:

            • Use Bayesan Inference to produce a ‘shit/shinola score’ for contributors instead simple up/down vote totals

            • Experiment with different recency biases for the score; you can trust that people will change over time

            • Generally figure out what you’ll be using karma for and make sure you have a way to measure how well it’s working

            • VGarK@lemmy.worldOP
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              0
              ·
              1 year ago

              I’ve googled Bayesan Interference, however I don’t understand what you meant by it. Could you elaborate please :)

              • FearTheCron@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                Here is a good general explanation of Bayesian inference.

                I think @jayrhacker@kbin.social is suggesting using such techniques to predict “troll” or “not troll” given the posting history/removed comments/etc. My personal thought is that whatever system replaces karma, it should be understandable to the typical user. I think its possible Bayesian inference could be used in developing the system, but the end system should be explainable without it.

                • VGarK@lemmy.worldOP
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Thanks for the link. To anyone that does’t know about Bayesian inference, do check it out!

                  Now I have an existencial crisis thanks to the video 😂 the funny part is that thats the same thing used to detect spam email…

        • YellowBendyBoy@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          1 year ago

          Or you could have a system where trolls and bad people are simply banned in stead of needing users to figure it out themselves

            • YellowBendyBoy@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              They get reporterd and the admins ban them. Simple as that. And the same holds as for the rest of the fediverse, servers that don’t moderate well will get defederated. On Reddit bad actors can just run around unhindered, here not so much.

    • VGarK@lemmy.worldOP
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      1 year ago

      Not a problem at all. I understand that we are ego-driven, but then again, the fediverse is a new working paradigm. We are here because we want to. Genuinely curious what you guys thought!

      • CynAq@kbin.social
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        We want to discuss topics. This is a place to do that.

        Simple need, simple solution.

        You don’t need an extra incentive to make people talk about things if people talking about things is the thing you want. You don’t want to incentivize people who don’t want to talk about things to be active somewhere you want people to talk about things because then those people will start doing the thing your’e incentivizing them for instead of talk about things.

        I personally only want people who want to talk about things here, and don’t want people who don’t want to talk about things.

        • fishos@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          Exactly this. You want to incentivize discussion, not the dopamine rush casino/arcade that just leads to low effort, low quality posts. If people want to be here for discussion, then they will either lurk and consume, or participate earnestly. Don’t put systems in place that reward the opposite.

    • GunnarRunnar@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      1 year ago

      There are few things Karma system helps with that come to mind.

      For others:

      • Reputation
      • Activity

      For you:

      • That endorphin XP boost when you level up. Makes you more likely do engage after the first hit.
      • Gives you an idea how your comment has been received by others.

      Presumably there are other things as well, these just quickly came to me.

      • mack123@kbin.social
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        1 year ago

        That is a good way to think about it. What is the need from the reader’s perspective and from the poster’s.

        One would certainly read a post with low upvotes from a author with high reputation if you are interested in the specific magazine. I wonder if the reputation should not be topic bound and not just general. That would be useful from the reader’s perspective.

        • GunnarRunnar@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          1 year ago

          Some kind of implementation of what you said would solve Reddit’s problem of mods reposting and deleting content untill it “goes viral”.

          • mack123@kbin.social
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            The exciting thing about this space is that much of it is undefined. It is all about the protocols and the main features at the moment. The 2nd generation tools will be born out of what we discuss now and think about now.

            How do you make sure a user is not trapped in his special interest bubble and still gets to see content that has everyone excited? How will we make use of the underlying data, on both posts and users to suggest and aggregate content.

            I think there will be more than one solution eventually, different flavours of aggregators running on the same underlying data.

            So much possibility. And we control it. If you don’t like the way your lemmy instance or kbin aggregates, choose another site or build your own. The data is there.

  • asterzura@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    8
    ·
    1 year ago

    I think we should stop seeing Lemmy as just a substitute for Reddit. Lemmy can be it’s own thing, without having to do ‘reddit-like’ stuff.

    Imo, I don’t think the karma system is really necessary (it doesn’t even make sense) and the upvote-downvote is good enough to filter quality posts.

    • VGarK@lemmy.worldOP
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      5
      ·
      1 year ago

      That is indeed my fault. I came looking for something to end the craving and the void left by reddit. I should rethink my approach and understand that this could go beyond my ego

      • mordred@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        This is really a great approach not only to the matter at hand, but to life in general. I wish more people used it in the world.

      • LukeMedia@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        Props to you for admitting where you could approach this in a more healthy way. Too few adults seem capable of doing such.

  • chuso@kbin.social
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    8
    ·
    1 year ago

    What about hidden karma?
    Like there is still karma used internally to decide what posts to promote and how to weight votes, but the numbers are kept only internally so people don’t get obsessed with that number next to their (and others’) profile?

    • imperator3733@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      5
      ·
      1 year ago

      Or what if a user could see their own karma, but no one else’s? If karma isn’t publicly visible, then people may care less about it.

    • InfiniteFlow@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      I think this would make people more obsessed. We would see the rise of SEO-like shenanigans where they would try to guess what makes the internal algorithm tick, complete with “karma experts” to advise you on how to optimize, etc. more of a shitshow that just having it plainly visible, I think…

    • Dick Justice@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      No, no, no, please no hidden algorithm. that’s as bad or worse than karma, especially with the incoming bot shitstorm.

  • Technicated@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    8
    ·
    1 year ago

    I much prefer how Lemmy approaches this; upvote and downvote count per comment, no tally of total points.

    Way less people trying to Karma farm then and repost content for fake internet points that don’t mean anything.

  • FreddyNO@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    7
    ·
    1 year ago

    We should keep it as is. Having an account score just amplifies a big issue with sm. The content should be in focus, not the people posting. A relevant comment should be hightened because it itself is good. In the same way we shouldn’t judge something because the user has a low karma, but because the content is bad.

    The idea behind something keeping a score on a profile is good, but it doesn’t work as intended in practice. People will farm in whatever way they need to get a moral highground. Not having such a scoring system will be a good way to reduce the incentive to copy/paste content from others.

    • Wurstkiste@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      A relevant and good comment, even and especially if it opposes the opinion of the majority. Giving downvotes to signal disagreement, when posts are sorted by karma and very low karma posts are even hidden, leads to circle jerking and immediately kills every healthy debate and controversy in the bud. If I have a dissenting opinion, I want to argue, not be muzzled.

  • FinalBoy1975@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    7
    ·
    1 year ago

    Posts should just be upvoted and downvoted with no credit given to the person who posted. Same goes for comments. In my opinion, upvoting and downvoting should just help the user find the most relevant information. Content that people upvote is the most seen. Content that people downvote is the least seen. Posters and commenters stay on an equal footing with no points system.

    • HangoverTuesday@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      7
      ·
      1 year ago

      Maybe we could still have karma, but display it as a ratio of good:bad karma or something? Active user and most of your interactions get upvoted, green dot. New user or not active for a while? Gray dot. Established user and all your content gets downvoted all the time, red dot.

      Get banned from 50+ subreddits? Your color dot gets changed to a picture of u/spez.

        • HangoverTuesday@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          It provides other users with an at a glance idea of your reputation, without chasing a “high score”. Could always rank users based on up/down votes, as I said, but limit the range so that as long as you’ve been active for a few months and aren’t a douchebag, your score will be maxed out.

  • Sabakodgo@lemmy.fmhy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    7
    ·
    1 year ago

    Karma does well in my opinion, however it should display the number of upvotes and downvotes, not just one number. Also adnn an option to sort by the number of downvotes.

      • DebatableRaccoon@lemmy.ca
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        Let them have their pathetic fun. We’re never going to stop trolls, might as well let them get their dumb points while they’re at it. It’s not like they aren’t typically obvious anyway.

  • linearchaos@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    7
    ·
    1 year ago

    Unfortunately, anything you replace karma with will have the same problems that karma has. Any indicator of comment or user quality will be readily gamed by anyone with any skills whatsoever in automation.

    • falcon@lemmy.one
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      thing is… in the end, karma doesn’t serve as that anyway (indicator of quality). It’s so easy to karma farm by (re)posting content (sometimes even stolen) in multiple communities.

      In NSFW communities, at least on Reddit, I see SO MANY posts that doesn’t fit the community they were posted in, but being upvoted anyway because… well… it’s nudity

      • linearchaos@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Karma may not be an actual indicator of quality, but it is often used as such. That’s the reason why all the bots exist in the first place and they are oddly enough* also the reason it’s not a good indicator.

        People look at top, People like to filter out the bottom.

        Look at the alternatives. Page views? They’d be instantly botted. Engagement? Instantly botted. There’s literally not any way to indicate that the crowd likes something or that something is of interest that can’t be replicated in a hot second. Karma is the closest thing we have to a sorting filter that content creators are doing the right thing or an indicator to content consumers that something might stand out from the crowd.

        I’m sitting here farming /r/interestingasfuck trying to make the /c/interestingasfuck viable and 2/3 of the highest ranked crap is garbage, The thing is, even 1/3 of it being real saves me from having to sort through thousands of page of crap to find decent stuff.

        edit* missed a word

  • ???@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    5
    ·
    1 year ago

    (1) No Karma system at all

    (2) Karma spread over several numbers rather that one; think of Github’s user page for example, stats for everything in general on one’s profile to reflect general activity

    (3) Community award badges

    • chairscoot@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      3
      ·
      1 year ago

      Community awards would be great. It encourages quality content and can strike a balance between new and old users.

    • AtHeartEngineer@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      I do like the community badges. And honestly, I would be ok if “karma” was how many “gold” awards a user received, at least there would be some monetary rate limit there to prevent bots from gaming the karma system. Also Lemmy communities would benefit and it would help pay for server costs.

      • ???@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        I agree that it would have to have lots of rules and limits to discourage bots/farming.

        Having it help fund the servers is an excellent idea, fully community-driven.

  • Margot Robbie@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    5
    ·
    1 year ago

    Absolutely nothing. Reducing people to a number and ranking their value based on that is inherently wrong.

    Keep it simple, the current Lemmy system works fine. Spambots and particularly disruptive people should just be banned anyways, a gamification system would not solve any issue on that front.

    • ???@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      4
      ·
      1 year ago

      While I still would like to see an alternative to Karma that’s less problematic, I agree with the idea that gamification will not solve issues. If anything, it creates a “KPI/score” people want to desperately meet for the wrong reason.

      • Railcar8095@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        1 year ago

        Let’s keep the upvotes to the post/comment only, do not show the overall of a user and don’t take it into account in any algorithmic decision. Let community managers see the ‘karma’ of the user in their respective community maybe, but beyond that it’s a feature that only had negative implications on Reddit

  • Dark_Blade@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    5
    ·
    1 year ago

    It’s a shame, but any sort of number-based system will most likely end up with the same problems as karma. Not having the numbers add up is a good start though, since upvotes and downvotes are only really useful as ‘in-the-moment’ indicators of good vs bad content.

    Let’s keep it how it is, so that we don’t have another social credits system that doubles as a dopamine factory.

    • LukeMedia@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      Another element is that total upvotes don’t need to be shown on your profile. It can be on the comments/posts alone.

  • cley_faye@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    4
    ·
    1 year ago

    Score the posts, not the individuals. Attaching imaginary points to any kind of activity instantly turns it into a competition.

    Instead, any scoring should focus on actual content, which is basically what the up/down vote is.

    • Valmond@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      I like this, and I also remember forums where you knew that that type was good but weird, that one was nice but not very good etc etc. You had to build your “real” reputation because it was an enouy small space.

      I hope Reddit will explode and create gazillions of normal sized subs…