Hamas is a state actor. They are the duly elected government of Gaza. It is true that those elections were a long time ago, but polls still show a majority of Palestinians support Hamas, including the October 7 attack. Hamas may not have tanks and fighter jets, but they sure as hell have trained soldiers, a variety of weapons, VERY extensive defensive infrastructure, foreign relations with other governments, and popular support. So, in what way is the Israeli-Hamas war NOT a state operation?
I don’t feel like typing a huge explanation. All I’ll say is, if you think this time bombing “the terrorists” into submission will work, you’re delusional.
Hamas is not the only militant group in Palestine, they have some conventional troops but the majority of militants in Palestine are guerilla fighters which are inseparable from the population. They are not fighting a conventional war with tanks, it is an asymmetric war in a densely populated urban area, using tunnels and ambushes. So even if the ‘Hamas’ government was removed, it’s not the same as stopping a government like in Nazi Germany etc.
Hamas uses guerilla tactics, but that doesn’t make them any less a state actor. You haven’t actually refuted any of my points about Hamas being the elected government of Gaza, having an organized military and foreign relations, and continuing to enjoy the support of their population.
Remember also that the Nazi government called for the German people to continue resisting the Allies by adopting guerilla tactics. What if the German people had retained their Nazi ideology and continued to fight the Allies using guerilla tactics in urban areas with popular support? Maybe it would look something like what is happening in Gaza, including the civilian casualties.
I didn’t disagree with the idea they could be seen as a state actor but there are many active groups in Palestine, it’s not the same as an organization like the Nazi party. I don’t understand what point you are trying to make. Are you trying to liken the Palestinian people to Nazis so that they can be massacred guilt-free?
No, read the thread. I was responding to a comment that said Israel can’t fight an ideology. My point is that you can fight an ideology and we have many times. You cannot entirely eliminate an ideology, but you can destroy governments that are based on an ideology. My examples included the Nazi government.
Hamas is a popularly-supported state actor espousing and ACTING on an obnoxious, violent ideology that started a war with a much more powerful state by literally killing civilians. Civilian casualties on the Gaza side are unfortunate, but also expected as a natural consequence of war. The other argument in this thread is that the ratio of civilian casualties shows that Israel is purposely genociding Gazans, which is belied by the fact that the ratio of civilian casualties is about the same on both sides (while admitting that precise figures are hard to verify).
And, no, I don’t think that Gazans should be massacred. Nor do I think that German civilians should have been massacred when the Allies invaded Germany. However, the German people surrendered and repudiated the Nazi ideology. If they had not, perhaps Germany would still be occupied by the Allies and it would look a bit like Gaza today.
What does the ratio of civilians killed have to do with it when Israel has killed over ten to twenty thousand more since that day? It’s like saying it would be okay to carpet bomb Afghanistan immediately after 9/11 so long as you hit a couple militants while massacring thousands. Whatever point you’re making, Israel is an illegitimate terrorist state so it really is irrelevant, they must be stopped and the state dismantled.
Again, read the thread. The other commenter pointed out that the ratio of civilian casualties proves that the Israelis are trying to genocide the Gazans. I pointed out that the ratio is about the same on both sides, thereby refuting the commenter’s assertion.
Fair enough, my apologies, that in itself does not prove a genocidal intent. This whole semantic discussion does seem a little useless to me though when there are thousands of people being massacred currently. It only serves to legitimize the actions of Israel.
Hamas is a state actor. They are the duly elected government of Gaza. It is true that those elections were a long time ago, but polls still show a majority of Palestinians support Hamas, including the October 7 attack. Hamas may not have tanks and fighter jets, but they sure as hell have trained soldiers, a variety of weapons, VERY extensive defensive infrastructure, foreign relations with other governments, and popular support. So, in what way is the Israeli-Hamas war NOT a state operation?
I don’t feel like typing a huge explanation. All I’ll say is, if you think this time bombing “the terrorists” into submission will work, you’re delusional.
We’ll see. Odds are you’re right, though. It probably won’t work. That said, you never know what the trigger for change will be.
Hamas is not the only militant group in Palestine, they have some conventional troops but the majority of militants in Palestine are guerilla fighters which are inseparable from the population. They are not fighting a conventional war with tanks, it is an asymmetric war in a densely populated urban area, using tunnels and ambushes. So even if the ‘Hamas’ government was removed, it’s not the same as stopping a government like in Nazi Germany etc.
Hamas uses guerilla tactics, but that doesn’t make them any less a state actor. You haven’t actually refuted any of my points about Hamas being the elected government of Gaza, having an organized military and foreign relations, and continuing to enjoy the support of their population.
Remember also that the Nazi government called for the German people to continue resisting the Allies by adopting guerilla tactics. What if the German people had retained their Nazi ideology and continued to fight the Allies using guerilla tactics in urban areas with popular support? Maybe it would look something like what is happening in Gaza, including the civilian casualties.
I didn’t disagree with the idea they could be seen as a state actor but there are many active groups in Palestine, it’s not the same as an organization like the Nazi party. I don’t understand what point you are trying to make. Are you trying to liken the Palestinian people to Nazis so that they can be massacred guilt-free?
No, read the thread. I was responding to a comment that said Israel can’t fight an ideology. My point is that you can fight an ideology and we have many times. You cannot entirely eliminate an ideology, but you can destroy governments that are based on an ideology. My examples included the Nazi government.
Hamas is a popularly-supported state actor espousing and ACTING on an obnoxious, violent ideology that started a war with a much more powerful state by literally killing civilians. Civilian casualties on the Gaza side are unfortunate, but also expected as a natural consequence of war. The other argument in this thread is that the ratio of civilian casualties shows that Israel is purposely genociding Gazans, which is belied by the fact that the ratio of civilian casualties is about the same on both sides (while admitting that precise figures are hard to verify).
And, no, I don’t think that Gazans should be massacred. Nor do I think that German civilians should have been massacred when the Allies invaded Germany. However, the German people surrendered and repudiated the Nazi ideology. If they had not, perhaps Germany would still be occupied by the Allies and it would look a bit like Gaza today.
What does the ratio of civilians killed have to do with it when Israel has killed over ten to twenty thousand more since that day? It’s like saying it would be okay to carpet bomb Afghanistan immediately after 9/11 so long as you hit a couple militants while massacring thousands. Whatever point you’re making, Israel is an illegitimate terrorist state so it really is irrelevant, they must be stopped and the state dismantled.
Again, read the thread. The other commenter pointed out that the ratio of civilian casualties proves that the Israelis are trying to genocide the Gazans. I pointed out that the ratio is about the same on both sides, thereby refuting the commenter’s assertion.
Fair enough, my apologies, that in itself does not prove a genocidal intent. This whole semantic discussion does seem a little useless to me though when there are thousands of people being massacred currently. It only serves to legitimize the actions of Israel.