The DM was a DM asking us to change our no tankies policy and remove the fuck tankies banner as it was apparently upsetting hexbear users. Apparently tankies view the word tankie as a form of slur. The admin wants us to ally as a form of “left solidarity”
Now personally I think we have the word takie pretty well defined in our rules and have no intention of changing it. Fuck tankies, they don’t belong here.
I didn’t write fuck commies, or fuck libtards, (I am a vocal socialist and very far left) or anything like that, the banner is specifically about pro-auth dictator-worshipping tankies.Removed by mod
Holy fuck great start to federation, like just actual semantics trolling. I don’t even know what else to call it, you have 0 pushback on the fact you praise dictators, it’s actually amazing.
What dictators are you talking about?
Cricket, cricket
Yeah doesn’t doesn’t seem like anyone wants to answer.
I had a another comment of my mine in this thread removed, that was just asking if someone who self described as very left supported any AES.
Way more into accusations than answers
You sound fun
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I wouldn’t use the term “x-tard”, it’s pretty ableist :/ (and something I’ve had to put up with as an autistic person - honestly it was going away a few years ago but seems to have re-established itself via 4chan’s memetic bleedthrough to internet communities).
But I do agree very strongly with the sentiment ., it’s nice to have a leftist space on lemmy not overrun by authoritarianism tbh nya
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This is a fucking internet website on the internet. Lay off the red dye kid
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Not replying to anything other than pointing out that at least on my TestFlight version, Memmy properly “hid” the spoiler until I expanded it.
Is criticism of the use of that word against 196’s rules? Here are articles from the Chicago Tribune and the Anchorage Press, and a definition from the Cambridge English Dictionary which say:
Taking the R-word and adding “lib” to it doesn’t make it any less offensive. And what bothers me is that those who combine “liberal” with that word are not insulting their intended targets — they’re insulting an entire group of people who have done nothing wrong, all while perpetuating a term that simply needs to go away.
Combining the R-word with liberal makes it no less offensive.
an offensive word used by some people on the extreme right of politics to refer to someone who holds left-wing political beliefs
While I understand that you’re using it ironically, I believe that being critical of the ironic use of offensive language is valid and contributes to discussion. I find it concerning that Nakoichi’s post was removed without any explanation other than calling him, “braindead.”
Being called a liberal is insulting enough. Most liberals will identify as progressives.
Ok yes I’m not calling anyone a liberal though
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I stand corrected.
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some people want to post here but are repelled by “fuck tankies?”
good.
that is the intended functionality of the banner.
Generally speaking, people offended by this are either:
-
libs that dont understand the distinction between tankie and communist or have been misinformed by tankies on what its supposed to mean, but are pro communism(wierd combination?)
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the “CCCP did nothing wrong” people
maybe having something leftist in the banner or some place like that could help the former, but I wouldnt remove the message, as it acts as a soft filter for the latter.
Fuck anyone who works for the Dept of Naval Intelligence or the FBI. Fuck their social media interns, even. Anyone who interferes with the internet to filter out left-wing political content is scum.
If that offends you more than “fuck tankies,” you have the same problem but worse.
You’re a human or a fed. Are we on the same page? If not, that’d be odd, since this is just a trans-friendly forum for harmless shitposting, right? There shouldn’t be any feds here.
I dont understand what this means. What does the dept of naval intelligence have to do with this post on lemmy.blahaj.zone
Certain social media ops/tracking programs are run by the DNI. Not saying they’d be on this site but the mods seem really pesky about condemning Western federal agencies so this is a test, basically. If “Tankies” in their head are more threatening than the FBI in real life, they have something to answer to
Bro watch your ankles when you pivot like that :3
How about fuck anyone who works for the Chinese disinformation and propaganda arm. Fuck anyone who censors their citizen’s internet. Fuck anyone who is actively committing genocide against minorities within their country.
Works both ways!
Fuck anyone who is actively committing genocide against minorities within their country.
Are you american?
Please go ahead and compare anything to what is happening to the Uighur people.
Believe it or not but
- You can hate more than one country at a time
- You can hate the country you were born in
Who’d a thunk it?
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Tankies mad they’re being called tankies?
Drawing a comparison to the use of “woke” is fucking hilarious. Only one of those terms is actually an insult, and the insinuation that both of those terms are the same says a lot about their perspective.
yeah. fuck tankies. that’s the thoughts.
The fact they feel the phrase fuck tankies is acting as a barrier to their participation in 196 should be a wake up call for them to examine their political views.
Unlike their use of the word liberal, which they use to refer to everyone to the right of them on the political spectrum, we are using the word tankie for a single specific group. Tankie means authoritarian communist. Please keep the sign.
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woke = (-∞, center]
tankie = (-∞, progressive liberal)
I agree with all of these takes. You’re still a tankie though.
Maybe do some introspection?
Unlike their use of the word liberal, which they use to refer to everyone to the right of them on the political spectrum, we are using the word tankie for a single specific group
Yes, for everybody to the left of you.
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I am a social democrat. I think we should elect socialist politicians through our existing democracy. The socialist politicians will then vote on legislation to regulate the economy and ensure that corporations do not gain an outsized influence in the free market.
Looks at Allende, the Indonesian Genocide, ÖSDAP, and the US Civil War… I am sure, this time the ruling class will just say “aww shucks”, and peacefully give up power, rather than fight to retain power like every previous time.
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Here in the US, the people rule. Since socialist policies are in the interest of the people, they will want to vote for politicians who support socialist policies.
Here in the US, the people rule.
This is literally objectively not true:
https://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/princeton-experts-say-us-no-longer-democracy
The US is not, and has never been, a democracy, because the people do not direct the actions of the government except on the margins. There is no democratic input on imperialism or capitalism. Those are invariate, and the system is designed to protect those from public influence.
It’s crazy to see a far left news source be used to try to convince people that the US has never been a democracy.
We have always been a democracy and we thankfully still are a democracy. We are in danger of losing our democracy to fascism however. If we don’t fix the flaws in our democratic institutions we will end up in a fascist dictatorship.
I am well aware we are circling the fascist drain. I also know that the modern neoliberalism movement started by Regan and Thatcher is how we got here.
- 70% of Americans want singlepayer healthcare
- 90% want universal background checks for firearm purchases
- 75% want Citizen’s United repealed
and yet these and other popular policies remain politically impossible
Ivy league uni
“Far left” lol lmao even
Ok, you know things. Cool. So why are you being so dodgy about hyperspecific political tendencies? Why is such a precarious, controlled, center-left (by ur standard) system like the US worth balancing?
come on this has to be satire. you can’t be serious about this shit.
Department of Naval IntelligenceStudy: Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens:
From the abstract:
Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.
further down:
In the United States, our findings indicate, the majority does not rule — at least not in the causal sense of actually determining policy outcomes. When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites and/or with organized interests, they generally lose. Moreover, because of the strong status quo bias built into the U.S. political system, even when fairly large majorities of Americans favor policy change, they generally do not get it.
What is it, like, 70% of Americans want single payer healthcare?
The people rule so effectively in the USA that the candidate with less votes has won 1/3 of presidential elections in the 21st century.
How can you be a “democracy” if the candidate with the most votes loses the election? I thought that was the number one rule of democracy, the person with the most votes wins.
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This has been tried many times and history shows that it’s a really effective way of getting yourself couped and get a brutal reactionary regime put in your place. The bourgeoisie is not burdened by any high-minded liberal ideals when it comes to preserving their wealth and power, they are going to do whatever it takes.
Have you ever heard of anarchism and mutual aid
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I’m personally more afraid of being drafted in a war started by russia but whatevs
Oh, so you’ll just say whatever whack shit about the genuine struggle for socialism, but when confronted you drop a “whatevs”. Let me know when you scheme up an anti-authoritarian scheme to build socialism when surrounded by hostile imperialists. We would all prefer that.
What’s your point? Are russia not currently being an imperialist nation? They are invading a country for the sake of territory
My point is you’re changing the subject to Russia (fuck Putin, the invasion is unjustified and horrific, fuck NATO, they are using Ukraine as a puppet to weaken their geopolitical rival and imposing a brutal privatization regime) when we were talking about “authoritarian socialism”. Revolutions are authoritarian. Maintaining the victory of the working class over the capitalist class is authoritarian. The entire point of socialism is to seize authority and wield it for the good of the people, at the people’s direction. There’s no way to do it without authority because you will be crushed by reactionary forces inside and out.
Now, just out of the blue, for no discernable reason, the Russian government decided it would just go ahead and conquer a large population in a land where it would have to fight an insurgency for approximately forever. Yes, this is definitely what’s happening. A tankie might call this pure MSNBC brain, but there is literally nothing else you need to know in order to understand this conflict. Stay strong, and continue to be the smartest person in the room.
Maknova’s territory, disregarding their anti-Jewish pogroms that were only stopped later, still worked under the authority of one man. The CNT-FAI even found a need for stopping strikes and purging anticommunists during their struggle against fascism. Expecting a socialist movement to be perfect is ahistorical and throws aside the will of those who are the most annihilated by imperialism. There’s a reason this discussion largely occurs in the global north.
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There is no one to the right of authoritarians who want to silence dissent and use violence to right the inequalities in society.
Killing Nazis is right wing now I guess?
If we were at war and they were soldiers, sure. Otherwise it’s murder.
I like this logic. Killing should be a last resort.
Further, if I had a billion dollars to spend, I’d sooner spend it on organizations like Life After Hate and get them the resources necessary to deconvert and deprogram Nazis than I would on any iteration of our current system of playing whack-a-mole with their censor-evading code words. Or on some Nazi-killing executioner.
I hate how quick people are to advocate giving up on their fellow humans.
?
Yeah, definitely not. “Tankie” isn’t some mostly meaningless word like “woke”, it’s a very specific belief in authoritarian self-declared, so-called “communist” states (USSR, China, North Korea, et al).
They claim to be for revolution and then turn around and give 100% blind obedience to the newly installed leaders. Pointing out their immense power or bad actions gets you called brainwashed, a reactionary, or counter-revolutionary. They win gold in mental gymnastics in regards to how the new ruling class totally doesn’t count as a ruling class, how the state doesn’t count as a state, how the money doesn’t count as money, and how it’s still communism even though not a single one of those prerequisites has ever been met.
They don’t take down systems of oppression, they replace them and refuse to believe it isn’t the greatest idea anyone’s ever had. Here’s a hint: if your “revolutionary” party demands absolute loyalty, they probably aren’t as great as they say.
I totally agree with your definition here, but I’d add there are some on the right who use this term to describe and dismiss almost anyone on the left. The right consistently wages war on language, co-opting words with existing definitions and changing them to suit their agenda. “Woke” is one example of this, as is “critical race theory.”
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a mainstream right wing talking head say “tankie” and frankly I’d be impressed if they even admitted they knew the difference between the various factions of the left instead of grouping them all together. Seriously, “liberal” and “Marxist” are completely interchangeable in right rhetoric.
Imagine simping for a genocidal Russia with their homophobic and transphobic laws and still wanting to post on 196. Good on you for keeping the banner up. Fuck tankies.
I say I have to agree. Leftist infighting is cringe AF. Disagree w/ people all you want, but gatekeeping and name calling is just silly
I think it’s reasonable to want to have a space that’s free from people that defend authoritarian regimes. From my perspective, at least, 196 has always been a more anarchist-oriented space, and I think it makes sense to try to preserve that.
I’d also make the distinction that they are not banned from this forum, in the same way that libs are not banned from posting on their instance – but those that post there are generally met with hostility, and that preserves the character of their space. I don’t see why we shouldn’t do the same.
Not to mention that this sub is unapologetically pro LGBT while practically every authoritarian government (including particularly those that tankies support) has been anti LGBT. eg, China prohibits same sex marriage and adoption, while forcing trans people to get permission from their family to transition (spoiler alert: they ain’t progressive).
Democratic socialism with actual equality for all (which goes hand in hand with the root issue socialism is supposed to solve) makes sense and is reasonable. But that’s not what tankies support. They’re defined by support for authoritarian states that have nothing to do with equality except pretending that they care about it.
Or how LGBT relationships and “sissy-men” get censored out the wazzoo in popular Chinese Media and on social media.
Fun fact my mainland Chinese friends started saying “this humiliates China” without any other context on their social media because they weren’t even allowed to say they were lonely during lock downs due to censors.
Someone’s missed the boat on Cuba’s new constitution.
AES literally more based than the United States.
I’ll leave my emojis below:
spoiler
That’s great. Good for them. Personally, I’m a lot more amenable to supporting Cuba. While certainly still deeply imperfect, I see Cuba as largely the victim of American bullshit sanctions.
But the fact that Cuba is better doesn’t change the fact that tankies regularly support China specifically. If you support two things, with one being good and one being bad, you’re still supporting a bad thing. So I don’t think your comment justifies support for China.
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As opposed to the democratic political system in china I assume? I’m so fucking sick of American “leftists” simping for the boots they haven’t felt.
Your distinction really has no meaning when there are places in China where people can be openly LGBTQ same as America with the US being more actively hostile to people in most places.
I’m fine with the use of the term authoritarian if it has actual meaning, but the way it’s used here it’s totally context less unless you just assume whoever is saying it is saying it as a stand in for “not a Western liberal democracy”.
A thing which actually cheapens a term which was meant primarily to refer to fascist dictatorships and feudal dictatorships.
So should we who practice anarchism not be allowed because we don’t believe in Demsoc rhetoric? To me, most proposed demsoc systems would still be inherently authoritarian, as all states are. Especially by so empowering a state by giving it ownership of property instead of collective and direct control by the population.
Am I not allowed because I think electoral politics are inherently anti-democratic and states serve primarily to create and protect the rich from the poor?
Your appeal to democratic socialism as if it were common sense is concerning, because it reflects a lack of will to even entertain other perspectives.
YUP
Fuck authoritarianism, I don’t care what side of the isle it’s from.
Tolerating putin simps is even more cringe.
Nah g fuck authoritarians. Every time authoritarians take power the first thing they do is murder all the non-authoritarian leftists that fell for the “left unity” meme. And I reckon that making excuses for the genocide of minorities and oppression of LGBT+ folk is a bit of a shit cunt move.
Based just on what’s in this post and not knowing much history about it, I’m where you are right now too. If their concern is “tankie” includes unobjectionable stuff, we can at least give them the opportunity to give us some examples to make their point. If they can come up with stuff that we agree often gets the “tankie” label applied to it but is actually consistent with this instance’s core principles, then we should hear them out. But if they are like “well, CCP is actually based,” then no thanks.
Just go to hexbear.net for 5 minutes and you will see that it is full of people going “CCP/Russia/North Korea is based”
Nobody there says modern Russia is “based”
WRT the DPRK I highly recommend educating yourself on the Korean war starting with the podcast Blowback.
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I’m an Eastern European leftie whose peasant ancestors (not all of them, obviously) suffered through famine, unspeakable state-sanctioned violence and extended prison terms during Stalinism and through decades of opression afterwards. The intergenerational trauma is something we’re all still struggling with. I cannot bear to hear the “Well, you need to break some eggs in order to make omelette”-type of negationist twaddle and I’m reminded daily of how the authoritarian postwar regimes have made it damn near impossible to resurrect the Left in the region. Don’t just fuck tankies, feed them rancid cum only.
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Look I am sure many of those places have done great things, like China’s recent wage cuts for rich bankers and pay rises for those lower on the totem pole, a good thing give credit where credit is due. But. How can you possibly remove the Bourgeois then place yourself at the top of the totem pole and not think of yourself as the new Bourgeoisie?
Yes every violent revolution is going to be authoritarian because you have lined people against the wall and you are not going to get every dissenter in the first round and unsurprisingly they are going to be pissed. So now you have a violent government and and a violent opposition, not exactly fun times for everyone stuck in the middle, Which once that happens is not just the liberals as many hexbears use as an insult for everyone not Auth-Left but basically the whole political spectrum that aren’t on the far ends.
A benevolent dictatorship is going to be the absolute best form of government you could possibly ever have but. You are never going to have one. The people at the top want to be at the top, and the people who want to be at the top are always going to be bastards.
You think that Authoritarianism is needed to keep the revolution going. Definitely correct if you do it through a coup. I don’t want to be under a nation that will silence me or worse because I criticise them. You can call that counter-revolutionary if you like but I would rather have incremental improvements where things get better slowly than everything is worse now and you just got to believe that things will get better, and our leaders plans will all just work out.
Tankie is a slur against Auth-Left. If you are Auth-Left well that’s the slur people who don’t like you are going to use.
To pivot on what this original post was likely created for (admittedly in a pretty bad way). Hexbear is full of some really crazy people who have very strong opinions and shout memes that make sense in Hexbear but don’t really out of it. 90% of Hexbears just seem so unhinged. If I see someone from Hexbear it makes me skittish to actually start a discussion with that person as there is a high chance they are just going to be hostile.
Huey Newton, founder of the Black Panther Party would be considered a tankie.
Fuck. Tankies.
but… but… BUT THE NUANCES!! :‘’(
a world without nuance, is a world without meaning for these guys… you know that… c’mon…
terf is a slur 🤝 tankies is a slur
the worst people on the internet
I think if a person feels offended by a generic “fuck tankies” in the banner, then that person is probably a tankie. Fuck tankies.
To be clear, what I asked for, was that the direct contents of a DM not be shared without the other parties permission. You can absolutely summarise the contents of the discussion.
Oh boy, more of Moss starting shit. This is literally bait that doesn’t actually communicate anything, along with communicating something you never actually said. Moss, quit with the shitty bait posts and ableist slurs, you are a drama starter in your own community and it isn’t appreciated. Malicious compliance towards Ada is a dick move.
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Shoot I didn’t mean to start any shit with ada. I didn’t have time for a whole write up this morning the scribbled image was all I had time to do during my commute. I think it’s coming off as a lot dickier than I meant to
Posting a blacked out screenshot and saying “Ada made me do it” is just weird. You didn’t even leave a description. All we see is that you got a DM and there are a bunch of scribbles over it, this is a nothing burger. It being pinned to the top of the community is weird. If you had posted the actual screenshot and made an actual point to what they said and didn’t use slurs that insult my child, I’d feel a tad different. But as it stands, this really feels like drama seeking behavior. There is no argument being made, it’s just directing people towards Hexbear.
This is the kind of thing that Chapo got banned from Reddit over, the exact event that created Hexbear. If you don’t like Hexbear, that’s fine. They are generally drama starters, I don’t support defederation but I understand why it’s being talked about. But you can’t call their users slurs, provide no context to what they said, and expect anybody in what is a safe space to be okay with it. It is literally the same thing that makes us discuss defederation with Hexbear, except they don’t use slurs.
Okay couple things here, some of which are legitimate criticism, and some of which are just straight up ignoring the fact that they’ve been resolved. I’ll respond in order. One: the screenshot. Originally, I had a screenshot of the DM, with the intention of people responding to it as a sort of survey. Ada removed the post, and asked me not to post private messages, so I quickly scribbled out the DM in the 3 minutes of free time I had to check my phone and left for a good 8 hours or so. Now that I’m back, I have not had adequate time to create a write-up of what the DM said, as I’ve been too busy trying to put out the fires I inadvertently caused. I have also already unpinned the post from the community, as it was only pinned while I was deciding how to respond to the hexbear admin. Secondly, the slurs. Whether or not I should have used a word derived from a slur is besides the point, because after people corrected me I edited the post accordingly. I have already resolved this, and corrected my behavior so there’s really no reason to continue fighting about it. I’ve also never called anyone slurs! I used a semi-slur in an extreme hypothetical example of what I wasn’t saying that is used by the right as a catch-all insult for anyone slightly left of center. What you’re accusing me of I miles off the mark for what originally happened. also wtf is a chapo
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I’m sorry for my tone it’s been a lot
Nah they haven’t been resolved, you’re throwing a tantrum because you got called out for being racist and ableist.
Now I’m racist? Lmao
I’m more just explaining what things look like because (just like that chaser thread) this is a giant lightning rod of drama. I’m just very hurt that the 196 mod team would be okay using language that degrades my child like calling someone braindead for standing against ableism. You can’t be pissy with me for calling out disappointing behavior, I don’t see all your edits and comments at any given time. You changed things, I didn’t know that. The defed thread needs to be the end of this conversation on the instance as a whole.
ChapoTrapHouse is a podcast. They used to have a subreddit until they were banned from Reddit. Not because they were leftists like they claim, but because they just loved starting shit with other communities. It wasn’t intentional, it was just a big community and mods made dumbass posts without thinking about it and all of a sudden threads were Chapo threads. They did the Reddit migration years before we did. I was around for when Hexbear was on Reddit, these are literally the things that got Chapo banned from Reddit and lead to the creation of Hexbear, Lemmygrad, and Lemmy.ml. We can’t bash them for their brigading while commiting the exact sins they commit that make them so difficult to federate with
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The context is that I pointed out their ableism and the fact that the whole “tankie” thing is often leveled at non-white organizations and people striving for liberation and they removed my comments while using more ableist language in the modlog.
I tried to be diplomatic and will still put forth that effort but wrt this Moss person, the gloves are off.
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Never send something to someone that you want private lol
Why? That doesnt make any sense. As soon as you post or DM anyone that is out in the world. If you cannot trust a party to not share your messages if you dont want them shared then dont send them. But it is the freedom of the individual to share what has been said to them. Summarizing muddies the water. Asking for this is grotesque.
DMs are by definition not public. Privacy is respect, and starting a discussion rsther than posting a screenshot of a DM would show that Moss respects the request. Basically, it shows tact and leadershio ability. Posting DM’s shows a skill issue.
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They, and their Lemmygrad bretheren, can fuck right off. When they’re not minimising atrocities, they’re writing absolute fucking treatsies on communist theory, and in general, acting like insufferable twats.
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Just unbelievable really.
