Maybe because it’s the only way many without generational wealth can afford to live.
I was gonna say. the phrase “double income no kids” arose in the 90s when “single income + kids” was a possibility.
Honestly at this point there are only a handful of headlines that cover about 90% of news stories:
-Young people ‘choose’ lifestyle choice that was forced upon them by external conditions.
-Young people are ‘killing industry’ that they are not paid enough to even dream of participating in.
-Rich person/people found guilty of or admitted to enormous crime will go unpunished.
-Someones totally unqualified opinion on a subject that we’re reporting as news because they’re rich.
-World ending, shareholders rejoice.Rich people doing stupid things with money because they aren’t being taxed like they should so that the economy actually can survive.
FDR taxes the shit out of rich people so they had to re-invest the money into their companies or lose it to the government. That built a strong, industrialized America with good paying jobs. Ronald Reagan reversed everything and we’ve been in decline ever since. Still a huge number of poor people continue to vote Republican, against their country, and their own interests.
this might be the greatest comment on Lemmy
Seriously, someone save this and post it on X and Reddit.
Disaster capitalism!!! 🥳
By choosing, I think we mean that it’s not an affordable luxury to do otherwise
oh trust me, the right wing would LOVE to take your ability to choose to procreate out of your hands completely. Abortion for sure, but also the the night after pill and even birth control. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/04/birth-control-is-next-republicans-abortion.html
I really wish that this was just a joke. Those fascists will take anything they can to make themselves feel powerful.
“Why aren’t the poors having more workers??” - the same people continually reducing the status and security of the working class
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If given the option or the opportunity … the wealthy wouldn’t mind the reintroduction of slavery and outright ownership of people
Choosing or forced to choose?
Choosing to not have children is becoming more and more accepted among younger people for a long variety of reasons, among them being climate and economy as well as “not going to ruin my body” and “well i just dont like children”
You pretty much nailed the entire reason for most of my friends and myself (mid to late 20s). We can all afford kids, but it’s just not something anyone desires except for one or two people in our group of 14.
Most of us don’t even dislike kids, but the thought of having our own is undesirable.
I struggle to understand how people can get over how terrifying and unpleasant having children is. Kids can be okay, except when they aren’t, and that’s often.
That is simply not true. Kids can teach you many things about yourself that you never knew you cared about. They open a part of this life you would never see otherwise. They are this thing that loves you no matter what and if you are a good parent you do not take that for granted and give it all you got.
I didn’t want any for many years for all the same reasons as many here. And it changed. And it’s great, for me. But if you choose not to or have doubts, don’t. It’s horrible for the kid.
Another thing that can happen is you can grow up able to see clearly that you’re an obligation for your parents they didn’t want. You feel like they’re always angry with you even if you’re perfectly behaved. Then they tell you they gave up their entire life for you, clearly bitter and regretting that.
There is a non zero chance I could make my kids feel this awful for existing, and that already would be a non starter. But on top of that there’s like 14 other reasons.
I’m not sure what you’re protesting about what I wrote. I didn’t attack you. I just don’t understand how people ignore all the anxiety they will certainly have with kids in addition to all the other additional anxiety if anything about the kid goes especially wrong.
Well this comment at least tells us something about how you might have felt when younger. I did not always see eye to eye with my parents but in the end, I felt like they loved me and the amount of happiness I experienced as a kid is almost immeasurable. I’m on team #nokids, but for a lot of people, the love they can experience through children is unique and powerful, and understanding that is not that much of a struggle for me.
That’s the thing, having kids is a unique experience just like not having kids is a unique experience. Being an individual is fundamentally a unique experience. Yet this whole conversation gets wrapped up in normative language like this which clearly expresses social preference for the former.
When I hear someone say that having children changed them in a profound way, I don’t hear anything other than “climbing a mountain is profound” or “laying on the couch all day is profound.” There is uniqueness and profound cumulative existence baked into to every heartbeat, but apparently a lot of people have trouble with this simple idea.
My comment mentioned nothing about the positive sides to kids. They obviously exist. The point I was making is I am surprised so many people opt into the most anxiety I think you probably can opt into.
I’m good. I’m 40. Every day i despise the idea more.
Good. It would be horrible if a kid was brought into this world just because they think it’s the right thing to do. It’s not for everyone.
They are this thing that loves you no matter what and if you are a good parent you do not take that for granted and give it all you got.
Even if that were true, it makes parents sound like they have a god complex that needs to be validated.
You don’t know what you are talking about lol
We didn’t impose it on them. It’s biology. Maybe get some therapy. I’m going to block you. You got a whole cat in a bag vibe that isn’t my jam.
Biology is bullshit. It’s not an excuse. It’s like saying segregation and greed are biology. Like rape and murder are. Negative things exist in our biology and creating other humans for one’s need to get high off of them is one of them i assure you will be widely recognized within the next decade.
It’s because your brain gets flooded with parenting hormones which give you superhuman delusion tolerance for the first few years. That’s why I’m always skeptical when people are like “it’s hard but I can’t describe how wonderful it is!”
Sure Ryan, that’s totally not just the brain worms talking, I’ll stick with dogs for my nurturing serotonin and I refuse to feel bad about it.
You shouldn’t feel bad about it. Do what you think is right for yourself. On the other hand, you should recognize that you have no idea what being a parent is actually like, which in a sense means that you don’t actually know what you are talking about. It’s life-changing and unlike any imagining.
It’s a life-changing experience that is unlike any imagining. I am a much better person for having had a kid. That said, I never found it even remotely terrifying or unpleasant, which is just to say that it’s definitely not for everyone.
I never found it even remotely terrifying or unpleasant,
That is absolutely baffling to me. I mean changing the first diaper alone would kill both those “Nevers” for me. Then I would imagine 20 times every day for at least 10 years there would be those feelings. Then when they drive. Then go to college. I mean do you ever worry about anything at all?
I feel the same way, but had already had my children at 21 & 23 before I got the chance to understand the options. I love them and don’t regret my choices, but I would have certainly had a life with different focuses.
The best thing you can do for the environment as a person in a western country is not have kids.
That’s not the only reason we aren’t having any, but it’s certainly a factor.
Caveat: the Jesus freaks on the right know no such restrictions
That said 100% you do you
Two wrongs doesn’t make a right. Then again I have no problem polluting and using up 2 hours of shower water and take tons of baths because others who never cared are doing it. So if you’re being selfish, sure, go ahead.
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Neither, really. More like are choosing not to go into child debt. Having a kid costs more than having a house. Good for this generation for taking control of their reproductive decisions.
But what you’re describing is an economic decision.
Was just going to say that.
Of all my younger siblings/cousins/etc, the only ones with kids were accidents. Only I chose to purposely start a family, and that took me a decade of saving.
Choosing. I hate kids.
Glad i never was one.
Why? Are you worried I wouldn’t like you? Don’t be. Most probably I don’t even know you.
Naw i think we’d get along great! I was semi-quoting Ms Trunchbull from the 1996 movie Matilda.
Oh, I never saw it. 1996 was a weird time in my life.
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Choosing. Def had the option to have kids but decided not to.
Most humans choose to breathe for oxygen, study shows.
Unlike these “reporters”, you know the answer.
“choosing”
- low wages
- no unions
- housing is either a lifetime’s savings for down payment on mortgage or a never ending escalator of rent fees
- states taking reproductive rights away
- states threatening contraception
- climate change dooming the future
- war - war in ukraine, war in palestine, war in africa, civil war being threatened by the chud down the street
Gee Mr Wizard, why don’t millennials want babies instead of avocado toast?
Pretty much
they arent choosing it.
They are being forced into it because its the only fucking way to have a chance at NOT being homeless and crippled.
Oh no, make no mistake, I chose it.
However, even if I wanted them, how the fuck does one even afford them?
Don’t get it twisted, many of us absolutely chose to not have kids because we don’t want them.
You can both be right, you know. Many of us also agree with what this person was saying.
I used to want kids. I will refuse to have kids unless I can afford them, and until I can GUARANTEE that their human rights won’t be stripped away by the whims of stupid people who are completely disconnected from reality. I won’t bring a new life into a world that’s rushing towards climate oblivion, either.
I’ll sterilize myself before I’m ever forced to have kids.
And there is part of the problem in the eyes of those with power… That thought that you have a choice in sterility. A choice to not have kids didn’t used to exist and you attempting to keep warm and have some pleasure basically guaranteed that you would have more eventually. So that must be stripped in order for you to continue the cycle of having kids not by choice and add to the population that gets fucked over.
OP: everyone in group x does y
Me: not everyone
You: you’re both right - not everyone
?
Agreed. These people are trying to leverage something many of us absolutely aren’t interested in to push for necessities such as fixing inflation, universal Healthcare etc. Except that if those things were fixed it wouldn’t change the birth rate much at all. That’s why Republicans are forcing people to be breeding machines. Educated well off people know better to engage in an activity that is detrimental to their physical and mental health. And making a human means you’re responsible for them until you or they die. That’s the biggest mistake people make. They make a human, then wash their hands of then.
Less of a choice and more of a survival tactic. Plus, my foregone children would thank me.
Those with higher income levels are the ones deciding to have less kids, whereas those with the lowest incomes are the ones having more. Source
If people are being forced into not having children for economic reasons, wouldn’t it be the opposite?
But I don’t disagree about it being in the best interest of my future children not to exist with the way things are heading lol.
Didn’t a 2006 documentary explore something like this?
Yes I remember it also had some surprising findings about electrolytes
Camacho literally smarter than some candidates today as they are willing to let the SMEs handle shit
If having kids causes you to be poorer what would the results look like?
The reality is that the more kids you have the worse you are at capitalism: You can’t work as much, you can’t take on more demanding jobs and you’ll make life choices that are less lucrative to care for the kids.
Can only speak for myself, but thankfully I have no interest in more demanding, lucrative jobs to improve my stats in such a rigged and inherently evil game as modern capitalism.
Doing just well enough with a loving family sounds well-lived to me. They can keep their McMansions and rooftop wine tastings.
Yeah but you also don’t get trashed at the bars every weekend and you live longer healthier life. It isn’t as clear cut as you are making it. I agree being a dad has hurt parts of my career but it has probably helped other parts.
The source you linked tells that more developed countries have less kids, which is almost unrelated to how “affordable” having a child is, which infact have the opposite trend.
Here is a source for within the USA.
The more money one makes, the more free they are to make the choice not to have children.
Thanks much better, however “Correlation does not imply causation” which is obvious in this case (and as the source itself say, the correlation is probably about education instead etc). The problem is much more complex and trying to explain it with a simple correlation is a bit naive, however you can’t deny how much of an economic struggle raising a kid is for the average income family…
I never claimed having kids wasn’t a financial endeavor. I’m just pointing out that people with more income have on average less kids… because they do. I didn’t suppose the cause of this correlation at any point. But yes, I’d agree education is a huge part of the cause of this correlation.
Could it be its more lucrative to not have children?
When contraception is expensive, career paths look bleak (or non-existent) and sex is the one fun activity you have… surprisedpikachu.jpg
No one should have a child unless they are willing to commit themselves to that child 100%. I have a daughter. She’s the most wonderful thing that ever happened to me. And if anyone willingly took substantially less effort than I’ve taken to try to raise her in a safe, healthy environment and prepare her for her future as best I can- fuck you, you should have worn a fucking condom.
No child deserves to be neglected.
Interesting/sad how simply due to circumstance, somebody’s absolute honest best at max effort/sacrifice can still be raising a kid in a favela.
Consider the top vs. bottom billion: I expect the latter half’s kids would appear neglected if they were suddenly transported to the former’s McMansions overnight.
That’s not to say the kisses and the love are any less, but the clothes and the education and the soccer practice? I’d bet certainly.
I hope within by two generations from now this kind of pondering is only possible from a historical perspective. The kids deserve it.
Hence my saying ‘willingly.’ You can’t help being impoverished.
I also have kids and love them dearly. However I think that it is important that parents have their own interests and time for their own lives, independent of their roles as parents. Of course with very young children there’s barely time to sleep, but humans grow up quickly! 😄
I’m not suggesting otherwise. You can put the effort in to do all that I said and still have time to do your own thing.
This is not a controversial opinion.
I make ~$200K a year. As a father of 5, I wish I had not had a single one. I love them, but the stress of taking care of them coupled with the future of the planet makes me regret life choices.
I find it interesting that you cite the stress of raising them as a factor in your regret. Could you not tell that was going to be an issue around the time number three came around? That’s not intended to be accusatory btw. I’m genuinely curious.
You incorrectly assume I’m intelligent.
Haha fair enough
Ok not a Java dev but this would explain the excess children (lol)
Oh hell yeah I’ll never pass up an opportunity to shit on a language i don’t use. It’s the programmer way!
Signed, a PHP developer. <3
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Maybe they meant it like “there is now stress for helping pay for college at a higher cost than when they were born.” Or being stressed knowing if the family lives in a HCOL area (typically where those salaries are offered), they might not be able to live there as well with the current trends in housing costs.
TLDR: things have changed for the worst for newer generations, parents can see it.
God, I wish I was smart enough to lie this well. No. I like sex, and hate condoms. I’m the dum.
I do too, which is why I was on the table getting a vasectomy before the vernix was dry on our one and only kid lol
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Kids are inherently stressful. They’re like little abusive people who you can’t legally defend yourself against.
Not OP, but I’ve found that the older they get, the harder it gets. Schedules are all over the place, and they start advocating for things they want to do that don’t fit neatly into the family calendar (vs when you were able to choose everything for them).
Expectations for parents have also skyrocketed. Your “best” now is far different than what the 1990s parents were expected to deliver. And, of course, you love them and want to provide them everything they need, so you bend over backwards to make it happen. That’s what society demands, too.
I don’t have as many kids as OP, and I can’t fucking imagine wrangling five in the current world…😳
He probably doesn’t know what contraception is.
He’s a Java developer
Made a ChildFactory, may as well use it.
I’m sorry man, I assume you have a bit of family support in this regard?
What choice do they have if kids are basically unaffordable?
My wife finally are in a point where we can afford to have children, but we are kinda getting a bit old to have children. So we are also choosing the dual income no children life style,
But a big part of that is our age and how long it took to get to a comfortable place financially.
Now we want to focus on saving for a house and retirement.
dinks
I don’t know what this means.
It’s the acronym for the phrase in the article - “Dual Income No Kids”. Might have been more obvious if it were in caps.
Thanks!!
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How old are you if you don’t mind me asking?
Mid 30s
perfectly ok in that range, it starts to get unsafe for the mother after 40 tho
I don’t know about this commenter, but don’t forget that everyone is different.
Hypothetically, you might be good having kids in you thirties, but one or both of them might have a condition or disability that gets worse with time.
I know people in their early 20s with bad arthritis, and a lot of people want to be able to chase after and run around with their kids. Sometimes chronic pain/illness can remove that option.
Oh for sure, I dont think everyone should or can be parents. Im just saying its not necessarily a death knell for parenthood in that age range
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I think adoption is also pretty pricey but I’m not sure where you’re from.
“When we advise clients about having children, we honestly don’t even give them the full real details and the real numbers,” said Shannon McLay, founder of The Financial Gym. “It’s one of those things if you see the math of it all, it might make you decide to not have children.”
what a whole generation of pulling the ladder up behind you will do to a society. Party of family values doing everything they possibly can to destroy familes.
In other words, “we trick our clients who paid us for financial advice into having children they can’t afford”.
Yeah, I hope there’s some more context. That quote makes it sound pretty bad.
people won’t pay to hear ‘don’t have kids’
so they skip that part
Holy shit, what an incredibly unethical thing to do. “We’re lying to the people who come to us for advice because if we told the truth they might make a decision we don’t like.”
Because we can’t afford our own lives, how are we supposed to support children? Not even taking into account for how absolutely fucked we all are. Our planet is dying, how can we bring children into this world if it’s all falling apart?
Hey you, I have a quick question about the username
Uh oh, this is awkward…
What are your thoughts on misandry?
I mean a lot of us wouldn’t even if it they paid us. We finally live in a time where we know better and can choose not to be barefoot and pregnant (unless you live in tx).
But you can’t forget that your children can save the planet, if your generation won’t.
My parents set the house on fire, I’m looking for a fire extinguisher, and some newsie wants me to know that if I just had kids they could grow up to be firemen.
I don’t think that’s what is being said at all. I think what’s being said is that if the future belongs to the next generation, it’s in all of our interests that intelligent and responsible people do not simply give up and allow the idiots to dominate the future. In other words, we all have a stake in the coming generations and simply opting out because we find it somehow inconvenient is not a moral decision.
This is not to say that we all need to have kids, but rather, is to say that we shouldn’t necessarily fault those who do choose to have them. Again, if the children are our future, it would be nice if at least some of them were raised by responsible, intelligent and well-educated parents.
intelligent and responsible people do not simply give up and allow the idiots to dominate the future
That would ring truer if not spoken by an idiot who dominates the present. CNBC is replete with these know-nothing goobers, and even assuming I bought in to their selective breeding strategy for repopulation after the apocolypse, I sure as hell wouldn’t endorse their target audience to handle the job.
This is not to say that we all need to have kids, but rather, is to say that we shouldn’t necessarily fault those who do choose to have them
That’s fair on its face, but more as a practical consequence. At some point you have to ask, what would we even do about people having more kids than we’d like. And the answers - from trying to shame them by screaming at them to doing old school Nixon-era sterilizations of whole populations - are incredibly grim and gross.
it would be nice if at least some of them were raised by responsible, intelligent and well-educated parents
If you want responsible, intelligent, and well-educated parents tomorrow, you’re going to need to house and feed and educate and generally provide quality of life for kids today.
But we hate kids today. That’s why, despite the economy growing at a steady clip for the last 20 years, we’re at record high child poverty with 1 in 5 kids living in poverty in the 40 richest countries. The current generation does not want to pay money to see them grow up health, strong, and capable.
Given the poor treatment they’ve received, why would Zoomers be expected to have lots of kids of their own? They have known nothing but declining standards of living, with a promise of worse to come.
What an asshole thing to do. Hey we had fun using up this planet now here, we made you to clean up up the mess. That’s what AI and robots are for. Not humans.
Man, fuck them negative votes. Humans do best understand pressure. We need humans to solve this crisis because, humans manufactured it. We make more humans and roll the dice.
Humans do best understand pressure.
Pure selection bias. You primarily hear about the humans who did well under pressure, because the humans that didn’t do well rarely make for popular reading material.
We make more humans and roll the dice.
I would argue that by the time a child born today is old enough to participate in the solution, the dice will have already landed. Either they’ll be living in a city/country/planet whose prior generation has positioned themselves to preserver, or they’ll be dying in one whose prior generation didn’t.
Having more kids won’t solve the problem. We’ve got 8B people already. One more or less won’t tip the scales.
Not having more kids won’t solve the problem, either. So no point in getting mad at folks who did choose to have children.
When the problem is too much of something, the solution is less of it. Make of that what you will.
I like to think the solution is much more complex but, I guess you can’t get snakes from chicken eggs.
Time to break the cycle of abuse.
“Choosing”
Those with higher income levels are the ones deciding to have less kids, whereas those with the lowest incomes are the ones having more. Source
If people are being forced into not having children for economic reasons, wouldn’t it be the opposite?
Because those dots are countries (with vastly different social and economic structures) not people. The people in the lower-income countries probably don’t depend on money in their lives as much as people in richer countries do. Your source also lists other reasons.
Also I’d say go back in time here in the US and you’d see something similar here with farm families, but that makes less sense now when land/housing is expensive and giant expensive machinery (that you probably wouldn’t trust anybody else with) does much of the work. That and 100 other factors that make it not work like that.
The person you’re responding to seems singularly determined to ignore the legally-empowered social construct of borders to a point it seems ideological.
Within borders it’s also the same pattern.
Weaker, also if you look at the same source with a graph of 2005-2021 you will see that it’s going down faster for below-poverty-level the most (bringing them closer together, 95/70/45 in 2005 to 72/60/46 in 2021). I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that the peak of this graph (before it starts falling for all-but-the-richest) is in 2008.
But also I think this data would probably look different if people living in multi-generational households (or otherwise having family who provide free childcare) was taken into account (which is to say that people aware they have no support will be more reluctant to have kids). On a different note, income alone is leaving out other important factors like the cost-of-living/housing in their area.
This is copy paste from your replies elsewhere in the thread. F-off with your purposefully misleading comment. That just says more developed countries have less kids, which we know. That has nothing to do with internal trends.
This was actually the first comment I made and then copy pasted to the other one as it applies to both. Regardless, the internal trends are the same. Here’s a source for USA. Sorry if that doesn’t fit your worldview.
