We can’t stop an ideology, but we can destroy governments based on an obnoxious ideology. And that is progress, obviously. Japanese Militarism, Soviet Communism, Nazi Fascism, Italian Fascism, Spanish Fascism… all still around as fringe ideologies, but I’m sure most of us are happy that governments that held these ideologies fell. Israel obviously is trying to destroy the current Hamas government in Gaza, not kill all of the residents.
When the ratio of civilian death to hamas death is far greater, you need to realise something is fundamentally wrong with the actions of the idf.
Additionally, reports of Jewish attacks on Palestinians are up too, which was high even prior to the war.
All that will happen is more people will join the cause to fight against the occupation of Palestine.
You all want to see an end to attacks you saw prior to the war, but you need to realise all that will happen is more hostility due to the wanton destruction of their home.
The leaders the idf seek are in Qatar, but they already knew this, which is why for weeks, the world was told this is a war against hamas the ideology they now state can’t be destroyed!
Seems like to me that here we have the same thing that USA did with the wmd excuse.
According to Wikipedia, there have been 1,332 Israeli deaths, of which 395 were IDF. So, that’s 70% civilians deaths on the Israeli side. The same article says that 61% of Palestinian deaths were civilian.
The fact that Qatar is harboring the Hamas government leadership is a problem. If Hamas surrenders, the war will end, but that will be difficult if the leadership is safely ensconced in Qatar and still has willing fighters in Gaza. How many deaths will be enough before Hamas surrenders, or the Gazans reject Hamas and new leaders emerge to make peace with Israel? Palestinians should popularly reject Hamas like the Italians eventually rejected Mussolini. As long as the population of Gaza supports Hamas in this war, it is a little bit hard to complain about civilian deaths.
While it’s clear there were civilians killed by Hamas on the 7th, even Israeli sources have shown evidence that a large number of civilians were mistakenly killed by IDF attacks, it is unclear how many people were killed by IDF. Also, many sources will claim any male between the ages of 16-40 (military-aged male) killed was a fighter without any further verification, so it’s difficult at this stage to say with much reliability the number of civilians versus militants killed especially in a place like Palestine with an active guerilla movement.
Hamas seems to be more of an organizing force than a specific ideology that all of Palestine supports, many people see the struggle against Israel as a fight for their people’s survival and have turned to more extremist measures because of the failures of all other methods over several decades.
I know why Palestinians support Hamas and certainly Israel’s right-wing government also shares a lot of the blame for the current war. However, when the duly-elected and popularly-supported Hamas government chose war, they acceded to civilian casualties. They killed (and raped) Israeli civilians on purpose because they knew that the IDF would respond with overwhelming force, which would further their goal of discrediting Israel and undermining the normalization of relations with Arab neighbors. And they are supported in all of this with overwhelming public support in Gaza, not to mention Iran and Qatar.
Hamas is a state actor. They are the duly elected government of Gaza. It is true that those elections were a long time ago, but polls still show a majority of Palestinians support Hamas, including the October 7 attack. Hamas may not have tanks and fighter jets, but they sure as hell have trained soldiers, a variety of weapons, VERY extensive defensive infrastructure, foreign relations with other governments, and popular support. So, in what way is the Israeli-Hamas war NOT a state operation?
I don’t feel like typing a huge explanation. All I’ll say is, if you think this time bombing “the terrorists” into submission will work, you’re delusional.
Hamas is not the only militant group in Palestine, they have some conventional troops but the majority of militants in Palestine are guerilla fighters which are inseparable from the population. They are not fighting a conventional war with tanks, it is an asymmetric war in a densely populated urban area, using tunnels and ambushes. So even if the ‘Hamas’ government was removed, it’s not the same as stopping a government like in Nazi Germany etc.
Hamas uses guerilla tactics, but that doesn’t make them any less a state actor. You haven’t actually refuted any of my points about Hamas being the elected government of Gaza, having an organized military and foreign relations, and continuing to enjoy the support of their population.
Remember also that the Nazi government called for the German people to continue resisting the Allies by adopting guerilla tactics. What if the German people had retained their Nazi ideology and continued to fight the Allies using guerilla tactics in urban areas with popular support? Maybe it would look something like what is happening in Gaza, including the civilian casualties.
I didn’t disagree with the idea they could be seen as a state actor but there are many active groups in Palestine, it’s not the same as an organization like the Nazi party. I don’t understand what point you are trying to make. Are you trying to liken the Palestinian people to Nazis so that they can be massacred guilt-free?
No, read the thread. I was responding to a comment that said Israel can’t fight an ideology. My point is that you can fight an ideology and we have many times. You cannot entirely eliminate an ideology, but you can destroy governments that are based on an ideology. My examples included the Nazi government.
Hamas is a popularly-supported state actor espousing and ACTING on an obnoxious, violent ideology that started a war with a much more powerful state by literally killing civilians. Civilian casualties on the Gaza side are unfortunate, but also expected as a natural consequence of war. The other argument in this thread is that the ratio of civilian casualties shows that Israel is purposely genociding Gazans, which is belied by the fact that the ratio of civilian casualties is about the same on both sides (while admitting that precise figures are hard to verify).
And, no, I don’t think that Gazans should be massacred. Nor do I think that German civilians should have been massacred when the Allies invaded Germany. However, the German people surrendered and repudiated the Nazi ideology. If they had not, perhaps Germany would still be occupied by the Allies and it would look a bit like Gaza today.
What does the ratio of civilians killed have to do with it when Israel has killed over ten to twenty thousand more since that day? It’s like saying it would be okay to carpet bomb Afghanistan immediately after 9/11 so long as you hit a couple militants while massacring thousands. Whatever point you’re making, Israel is an illegitimate terrorist state so it really is irrelevant, they must be stopped and the state dismantled.
Again, read the thread. The other commenter pointed out that the ratio of civilian casualties proves that the Israelis are trying to genocide the Gazans. I pointed out that the ratio is about the same on both sides, thereby refuting the commenter’s assertion.
We can’t stop an ideology, but we can destroy governments based on an obnoxious ideology. And that is progress, obviously. Japanese Militarism, Soviet Communism, Nazi Fascism, Italian Fascism, Spanish Fascism… all still around as fringe ideologies, but I’m sure most of us are happy that governments that held these ideologies fell. Israel obviously is trying to destroy the current Hamas government in Gaza, not kill all of the residents.
When the ratio of civilian death to hamas death is far greater, you need to realise something is fundamentally wrong with the actions of the idf.
Additionally, reports of Jewish attacks on Palestinians are up too, which was high even prior to the war.
All that will happen is more people will join the cause to fight against the occupation of Palestine.
You all want to see an end to attacks you saw prior to the war, but you need to realise all that will happen is more hostility due to the wanton destruction of their home.
The leaders the idf seek are in Qatar, but they already knew this, which is why for weeks, the world was told this is a war against hamas the ideology they now state can’t be destroyed!
Seems like to me that here we have the same thing that USA did with the wmd excuse.
According to Wikipedia, there have been 1,332 Israeli deaths, of which 395 were IDF. So, that’s 70% civilians deaths on the Israeli side. The same article says that 61% of Palestinian deaths were civilian.
The fact that Qatar is harboring the Hamas government leadership is a problem. If Hamas surrenders, the war will end, but that will be difficult if the leadership is safely ensconced in Qatar and still has willing fighters in Gaza. How many deaths will be enough before Hamas surrenders, or the Gazans reject Hamas and new leaders emerge to make peace with Israel? Palestinians should popularly reject Hamas like the Italians eventually rejected Mussolini. As long as the population of Gaza supports Hamas in this war, it is a little bit hard to complain about civilian deaths.
While it’s clear there were civilians killed by Hamas on the 7th, even Israeli sources have shown evidence that a large number of civilians were mistakenly killed by IDF attacks, it is unclear how many people were killed by IDF. Also, many sources will claim any male between the ages of 16-40 (military-aged male) killed was a fighter without any further verification, so it’s difficult at this stage to say with much reliability the number of civilians versus militants killed especially in a place like Palestine with an active guerilla movement.
Hamas seems to be more of an organizing force than a specific ideology that all of Palestine supports, many people see the struggle against Israel as a fight for their people’s survival and have turned to more extremist measures because of the failures of all other methods over several decades.
I know why Palestinians support Hamas and certainly Israel’s right-wing government also shares a lot of the blame for the current war. However, when the duly-elected and popularly-supported Hamas government chose war, they acceded to civilian casualties. They killed (and raped) Israeli civilians on purpose because they knew that the IDF would respond with overwhelming force, which would further their goal of discrediting Israel and undermining the normalization of relations with Arab neighbors. And they are supported in all of this with overwhelming public support in Gaza, not to mention Iran and Qatar.
All of the ‘successes’ you mentioned were state operations with standing armies. As more apt comparison would be our wars in iraq or afghanistan.
Hamas is a state actor. They are the duly elected government of Gaza. It is true that those elections were a long time ago, but polls still show a majority of Palestinians support Hamas, including the October 7 attack. Hamas may not have tanks and fighter jets, but they sure as hell have trained soldiers, a variety of weapons, VERY extensive defensive infrastructure, foreign relations with other governments, and popular support. So, in what way is the Israeli-Hamas war NOT a state operation?
I don’t feel like typing a huge explanation. All I’ll say is, if you think this time bombing “the terrorists” into submission will work, you’re delusional.
We’ll see. Odds are you’re right, though. It probably won’t work. That said, you never know what the trigger for change will be.
Hamas is not the only militant group in Palestine, they have some conventional troops but the majority of militants in Palestine are guerilla fighters which are inseparable from the population. They are not fighting a conventional war with tanks, it is an asymmetric war in a densely populated urban area, using tunnels and ambushes. So even if the ‘Hamas’ government was removed, it’s not the same as stopping a government like in Nazi Germany etc.
Hamas uses guerilla tactics, but that doesn’t make them any less a state actor. You haven’t actually refuted any of my points about Hamas being the elected government of Gaza, having an organized military and foreign relations, and continuing to enjoy the support of their population.
Remember also that the Nazi government called for the German people to continue resisting the Allies by adopting guerilla tactics. What if the German people had retained their Nazi ideology and continued to fight the Allies using guerilla tactics in urban areas with popular support? Maybe it would look something like what is happening in Gaza, including the civilian casualties.
I didn’t disagree with the idea they could be seen as a state actor but there are many active groups in Palestine, it’s not the same as an organization like the Nazi party. I don’t understand what point you are trying to make. Are you trying to liken the Palestinian people to Nazis so that they can be massacred guilt-free?
No, read the thread. I was responding to a comment that said Israel can’t fight an ideology. My point is that you can fight an ideology and we have many times. You cannot entirely eliminate an ideology, but you can destroy governments that are based on an ideology. My examples included the Nazi government.
Hamas is a popularly-supported state actor espousing and ACTING on an obnoxious, violent ideology that started a war with a much more powerful state by literally killing civilians. Civilian casualties on the Gaza side are unfortunate, but also expected as a natural consequence of war. The other argument in this thread is that the ratio of civilian casualties shows that Israel is purposely genociding Gazans, which is belied by the fact that the ratio of civilian casualties is about the same on both sides (while admitting that precise figures are hard to verify).
And, no, I don’t think that Gazans should be massacred. Nor do I think that German civilians should have been massacred when the Allies invaded Germany. However, the German people surrendered and repudiated the Nazi ideology. If they had not, perhaps Germany would still be occupied by the Allies and it would look a bit like Gaza today.
What does the ratio of civilians killed have to do with it when Israel has killed over ten to twenty thousand more since that day? It’s like saying it would be okay to carpet bomb Afghanistan immediately after 9/11 so long as you hit a couple militants while massacring thousands. Whatever point you’re making, Israel is an illegitimate terrorist state so it really is irrelevant, they must be stopped and the state dismantled.
Again, read the thread. The other commenter pointed out that the ratio of civilian casualties proves that the Israelis are trying to genocide the Gazans. I pointed out that the ratio is about the same on both sides, thereby refuting the commenter’s assertion.