I’m kind of in a strange boat right now where I’m really comfortable in Canada yet I can’t shake this feeling I need to get over to the US of A in order to take advantage of that strong USD. I, like many Canadians, work for an American firm and have a TN visa. Recently, my employer offered to sponsor me for a green card, if I ever choose to relocate to the USA. I can live pretty much anywhere I want as I’m a remote employee, but I do travel to the USA for client work.
It’s a tough decision to make. While I consider it, I thought I’d ask the community. So, say you good lemmings?
I went to the US for y2k , and was there for 5 years.
I came home with the exact same amount of money as I had when I left. And I also got a deep understanding for the absolute depths of cruel poverty in the US and for safety nets they don’t have.
Do it. You’ll never be the same, and you’ll really appreciate Canada better.
Nicely phrased.
What did you do there, if you don’t mind me asking?
I continued the work to build and maintain the “one true Unix” ;-) and a Linux side project until we sued IBM so they destroyed us.
So. Nerdy IT stuff that today we’d outsource and work remotely back here, but in 2k required working onsite in beautiful 2-person offices with closable doors, visual privacy, and a view of a happy groundhog most days.
We did it for four years. Washington state in the Seattle are is very nice. We met a lot of great people and we have fond memories.
Having said that it was clear early on this was not going to be permanent. Imagine taking your kids to the local park and seeing a sign that said no guns allowed in this park. Wait, guns are allowed in some parks? WTF. That was just a head scratcher. I found it genuinely hard to be in a place where I was decidedly middle class and so many people were so poor and with no benefits at all.
I remember once chatting with a cashier at the grocery store over the weeks as she was pregnant. One day I stopped seeing her and figured she had her baby. Two weeks later she was back. No maternity leave. She took her full two weeks of vacation and that was it. Shit.
Or the conversation I had with a cab driver who talked about still being in debt because his FIL was sick and avoided getting medical attention because none of the family had medical coverage until he had to be admitted.
The medical system is a confusing shambles of insanity. That’s if you have good coverage. Once our daughter was sick and the childrens hospital directed us to a closer clinic. We went. There was a discussion about possibly admitting her but in the end she went home. A few days later she was worse so we ended up going to the children’s hospital and she was admitted. Turns out the near by clinic was not in our medical coverage group and it cost us nearly $1000 out of pocket. Not fun but doable. The thing is, she was two nights in the hospital where we were covered. If we had admitted her the first day at the wrong hospital it would have cost us at least $10 000.
The whole system is a fucking nightmare of land mines and no one has any clue what any particular thing will cost you.
I just couldn’t be happy under those conditions. Side note I’m not happy with the slide in equality here in Canada either BTW.
My job is in high tech and they pay was no better, just even. We lost money on selling buying houses, but that’s just timing. I kept track of taxes paid. After medical expenses it was only a 5 percent savings and one medical emergency would too that the other way. Yes, I had great medical coverage.
Yeah, I was in Oregon and had really good health insurance, but was always a bit terrified of actually ever using any medical services. It’s so much less worrying to know that the emergency room won’t ever cost you anything in Canada. That said, I’m sure if I did ever need it, it would have been fine.
always a bit terrified of actually ever using any medical services.
That’s kinda the problem: in America, ‘preventative’ care is only talked about in past tense, like “wish he’d’ve gotten looked-at before it cost him his 401k AND house as well”.
No one goes for testing, no early warning.
I considered it and did an 8mo internship in Calafornia in 2016. While I would make about 2x what I make here (literally, I made 25CAD/hr in canada and 50CAD/hr in the states doing the same job with the same manager.) I don’t think it’s worth it for me at least. For one, the medical insurance is kinda insanely expensive, it ate up a huge chunk of the difference in costs while also not being nearly as good and making every trip to the doctors a huge worry and also a cost benefit analysis (and this was with very good, subsidized by my company insurance). I dislocated my shoulder in a biking accident while in Cali, I didn’t go to the doctor because I thought it was just a sprain and the doctors would not be able to do anything (while costing me like 200 bucks). When I got back to Canada I got it checked out and they said it was too late to do anything but that it could have benefited from physio when it was fresh.
The healthcare as well as a hundred other factors has knock on effects where poorer folks are very noticeably worse off. Toronto has a lot of homeslessness, but I don’t think Ive ever seen a homeless guy using a ruler as a splint on a leg bent the wrong way in Toronto. I don’t want to live in a place that does that to people.
Lastly I found public transit to be even more of a joke than it is in Toronto, and as someone that never wants to drive daily that was kinda awful.
While I would probably be marginally more wealthy in the US, I would definitely be less happy, and have a dirtier conscious. I am pretty well off regardless and that was a while ago before the housing crisis in Canada really kicked off so maybe you’ll reach a difference conclusion.
Toronto has a lot of homeslessness, but I don’t think Ive ever seen a homeless guy using a ruler as a splint on a leg bent the wrong way in Toronto. I don’t want to live in a place that does that to people.
This is a big part of why I don’t think I could ever live in the states. What a cruel place to live.
The main thing driving me to look south of the border is the cost of housing. The cheaper housing might balance out the bad government services depending on the location.
Cheaper housing is outside main city centers in both cases, you don’t win anything if your housing is cheaper but you pay back the difference (and more) in healthcare coverage and scholarship (if you’ve got kids).
I lived in the US for a while. I knew people in the consular office in California who shared the stats on Canadian movement into and back out of the US. 75% of Canadian immigrants will repatriate within seven years. I was an over achiever, it took me 9.
There are advantages to being down there, but they are all centered in being childless and in good health. Everyone is one chronic illness away from bankruptcy. I was a post-doc at UCLA and my wife was a lawyer. The health insurance we could afford didn’t allow us to get treated at the hospital I worked at. As a matter of fact we basically had to choose between preventative care and acute care because our policy wouldn’t cover both.
The public school system has been so eroded it is basically useless, so you will have to use a charter school.
I enjoyed my time there, and California is a great place to be rich, but it gets much harder as you settle in and face actual adult life there.
Boy that would be a terrible idea, as an American who had traveled a lot and is enduring a stint here until I get back to first world and safer second-world countries.
Nope, double nope and, while we’re at it, triple nope. Too much hate, guns, racism, inequality and I don’t want to raise my kids there. If we had to relocate internationally, I’d rather go to New Zealand.
Hell no. Alberta is already too conservative/religious for me, I’m not going to go down to some theocratic hellscape to make more money.
Do you love mass shootings or just hate having healthcare?
No way. I moved here from there (I’m Canadian now!) and every day I’m gladder I got out.
I’d probably make more money there, but there are things I value more than money and my life is significantly better in Toronto than it ever was in any of the three states I lived in.
Exact same boat. US -> Canada. USA scares the shit out of me. Infinitely happier, even with the reduced buying power.
I used to live in Wisconsin, close enough to Chicago to go on day or weekend trips often. I absolutely love Chicago, it’s a great city to visit, but I’ll never forget going to the Field Museum with my parents once and seeing signs warning against bringing guns into the building.
The reminders that you live in a violent society are always there, even in the most innocent of places. I’d rather have to save up longer to buy a new laptop or only have good pineapple for a few months in the summer than live that way.
What do you value more specifically about Canada?
I’m not sure how to describe it beyond saying life feels a lot less confrontational here in Canada, even living in the largest city in the country.
Obviously there are problems here, but it feels much more like an actual society than a collection of people who happen to live near each other.
It’s not even about healthcare or anything specific, those are just symptoms IMO. It’s a larger philosophical difference between the countries
I live in a small town in Eastern Ontario and work for a company in California. I would never, ever move to the US. Ever. We have it so much better here in Canada.
Cornwall?
No. Smaller and west of Cornwall.
What’s better about here, in your opinion? What would compel you to consider moving in the United States?
Workers rights. I insist that my contracts all say that they are governed by Ontario and Canadian Labour law. I have withdrawn my name from consideration more than once because they insisted on my contract being governed by one state or another’s labour laws.
Democracy. The fact that every citizen has the right to vote and equal access to the ballot box in non-gerrymandered electoral districts.
Personal freedom. Canadians have much more personal freedom than Americans. Yes, they have hate speech and guns but we have so much more actual freedom than they do.
Healthcare. You pay WAY more for health insurance in the US and even so they will deny everything and make you fight for it. I have a good friend who quit a job because their insurance company was denying all claims. My sister has osteoarthritis in her spine and needs surgery. Her surgeon is one of the best in the business. Her insurance company overruled her doctor and said that she should take physical therapy…for an irreversible, degenerative bone disease. Physical therapy for six weeks will cause her agony and worsen her condition.
Guns. So many people who shouldn’t have guns down there have guns. Gun bravery. Fear. Who needs an AR-15 to do groceries of buy coffee? They’re terrified all the time and they’re armed. That means they’re dangerous.
I could go on…
I would like you to elaborate on personal freedom. That’s very vague.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-country
This is a good place to start.
I already listed some of them. A big one is democratic freedom. In Canada we don’t have gerrymandering or voter suppression. Every citizen has the right to vote and equal access to the ballot box. We are free to love who we want and to marry who we want. We are free to read what we want. Women have the same freedoms as men. We have workers rights. We don’t have legalized theft on an industrial scale (civil forfeiture). Our police are far less militaristic and we have civilian oversight.
They beat their chests and proclaim themselves the freest people in the world but they are mistaken.
I insist that my contracts all say that they are governed by Ontario and Canadian Labour law. I have withdrawn my name from consideration more than once because they insisted on my contract being governed by one state or another’s labour laws.
Your processes intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
No really, that’s f’n awesome. Still a no from me, but you’ve fixed a huge hole. Also consider adding the bit that you’re paid through a Canadian subsid (or would ADP.ca work?) So that taxes are simpler.
Many smaller US companies don’t have Canadian subsidiaries. In those cases they use a PEO (Professional Employer Organization.) The PEO holds your paper and is your employer of record but all they do is provide benefits and pass the payment through to you. I’ve worked for a couple of PEOs. The latest one that I worked for was called Global Upside. The company I am working for now converted us from the PEO to a Canadian subsidiary and ADP just over a year ago. It saved them a lot of money so they took some of that money and increased our benefits.
It’s also really important to know your rights. My employer’s PEO insisted on a pre-employment drug test. I explained that pre-employment drug tests were illegal in Canada for most employees. They insisted that I could not be hired without one. I sent them and my employer the relevant section of the law and a letter from an employment lawyer and my employer told them to fuck off. Now Canadian employees are no longer drug tested. They also have unlimited vacation which is illegal in Canada. So Canadian employees have unlimited vacation, minimum 4 weeks.
The real cheat code is to work for a US company (and get paid in USD), yet live in Canada (and have expenses in CAD).
That’s what I do.
Any issues tax wise? I will be doing that starting in August.
If they pay you through a Canadian subsidiary then it’s no trouble, if you’re paid by the American branch itself you might have to file taxes in the USA along with Canada, I would check with an accountant how your specific situation works because there’s loads of different situations and you don’t know if the person you’re asking is in the same as yours.
It really depends on how you’re paid. I’m paid through a Canadian payroll entity so all taxes are sorted properly with the CRA.
The only thing I’ve got to be aware of tax wise is maintaining my Canadian tax residency… which means being physically on Canada at least 6 months of the year.
Current plan is for them to make me a contractor to simplify things on their end. I would prefer not to do that, but if that is what it takes to make the move possible then I will deal with the fallout.
That’s pretty common for companies that don’t have a payroll entity in a particular country. A lot of startups do this and slowly add payroll in countries that have a larger or growing number of employees.
There isn’t much for fallout. You will have to set aside $$ for CRA - either prepay into your CRA account on a quarterly basis or put money aside each month in an account you NEVER touch until tax time. It’s not too hard to guestimate your taxes owed.
You will have to keep all receipts - you can claim quite a lot as a contractor. I’d recommend also hiring an accountant. It won’t cost you that much - maybe around $500 if you are organized and make things easy by tracking things in a spreadsheet or personal accounting program.
You typically won’t get benefits… but most companies will top up a fixed amount per month to allow for what you’d usually get as an employee.
Do you get similar promotions?
Yup. There’s no difference in progression up the corporate ladder.
My bro’s VPN stopped working from his Canadian office, and that was his first clue that he was being laid-off from his American company.
I don’t need the added cash and crushing worry. Lagom.
No way. Stronger dollar is enticing, but the pros dont outweigh the cons in my opinion. The tribalism of american politics, the lack of free healthcare, and the increased risk of gun violence are some of those cons. These alone absolutely kill any interest I might otherwise have in moving to America.
The healthcare and gun violence are definitely big considerations for me too. If it wasn’t for the constant onslaught of mass shootings, I wouldn’t hesitate as much when considering between Canada and the US.
No, im really not. There is too much darkness, and too much hate.
The gun culture, “freedumb” insanity, and lack of basics such as healthcare make me view it fairly close to the third world. the only they thing have better there is more buying power.
Nah. Don’t feel like being caught up in one of the 15 mass shootings per day where the government will try to brush it off and blame it on trans people.
I may be dirt poor in Canada, but at least my trans neighbour and I are both safe when we leave our places.
No. The risks outweigh any possible benefits. If it’s a red state then the risks are even higher in terms of quality of education, healthcare and employment.
Thought about it very seriously for a long time. I did grad school for planetary science and there’s almost no market for that degree in Canada. But in order to work in the US in the space program, you need permanent residency in order to even have a crack at getting security clearance.
Had $10k US set aside for the immigration lawyer. Started interviewing at new space startups in 2015.
Then I was in Seattle for an interview and it was too expensive to get a hotel near the company. Since I had a car rental, I took a hotel an hour south – a roadaide hotel for $200/night. Can’t be that bad for $200, right? Got there and it was kind of shitty. Being if an adventurous sort, I went outside and sat in front of my room in the evening and chatted with the locals – the hotel was full of people on the dole for various reasons. Every single one of them was a republican. They all thought Obama was coming for their guns. They railed against anything socialist while, ironically, being the absolute dregs of society and we’re wholly supported by said system. I couldn’t understand it. This isn’t the hip Seattle I was expecting…
Then 2016 happened and I said “hmm, maybe I’ll wait.” Then the child detention thing happened and I said “I kind of feel like I am trying to immigrate to Germany in 1936…” and I took a look at myself. I decided to use that money as a downpayment on a house in Winnipeg and start a scientific equipment business. I’m not making instruments for spacecraft, but close enough. At least I’m no von Braun.
Very cool story. Thank you for sharing.
