Israel’s war in Gaza is chipping away at so much of what we – in the United States but also internationally – had agreed upon as acceptable, from the rules governing our freedom of speech to the very laws of armed conflict. It seems no exaggeration to say that the foundation of the international order of the last 77 years is threatened by this change in the obligations governing our legal and political responsibilities to each other.
The Jewish people of the world deserve apology from the government of isreal for using their suffering as a political tool in service of genocide.
In conflating politics and imperialism with lineage and race, the political movement of Zionism sows incalculable hatred into the world in the name of Judaism, so that they can reap it later, when Jewish people suffer as meat shields, as justification for expansionism, and forever-war. Down with this theocratic shell game.
As someone who is a Jewish refugee in the US, there are more than enough Jewish folks in Israel and around the US who are completely fine with what the government of Israel is doing. They should not be let off the hook. I say this fully realizing that the pro Palestinian sentiment has a large Jewish constituency in the US. So it’s not to paint with a broad brush. But people living in Israel are almost 3/4 in support of what is happening and the only protests in that country were from people who wanted to rescue the hostages but were fully on board with the horrors the country is committing in the name of Jews around the world. The conflation of a religion with an ethnicity will end up making us less safe.
That’s not because they’re Jewish, though, it’s because they’ve let their ego and pride overcome their empathy for their fellow human beings.
There’s plenty of non-Jewish people who are also perfectly happy to profit off the suffering of Palestinians.
Those were absolutely not the only protests in Israel, those were the only protests in Israel that got coverage and support from the government. The protests against what was happening were violently suppressed and silenced as has been happening for quite some time. Yes the large anti netanyahu protests made little mention of Palestinians rather than ceasefire deals to bring the hostages home but that is how you bring people together politically.
My pro-palestinian praxis is making sure my Jewish neighbours have no reason to even think about aliyah. Jewish safety? It’s here. Reverse doikayt.
The Palestinian people deserve a lot of apologies from a lot of assholes on the internet that have monetized their suffering.
And a lot of people in the Arab world deserve an apology from the Ayatollah of Iran for using them as meat shields in their failed attempt to wipe Israel off the map.
Literal parallel reality material. Arabs overwhelmingly support Iran’s antagonization of Israel and wish their own governments would do the same. Source: am Arab.
Zionism is a destructive toxic ideology of fascistic bloodlust and racial supremacy. It is the true descendent of Nazi ideology.
Given that the Zionist movement was founded decades before the Nazi movement, I would say Nazis are the descendants.
More accurately, they’re both separate descendants of ethnonationalism which was a popular ideology at that time. And still today, evidently, though it seemed to be in decline for a bit during the post-war period.
Nazis had nothing to do with the Jewish people establishing a homeland in Palestine. Joining those two groups is ridiculous and rude to Jewish people.
The Jewish people began by buying the land legally in the late 1800s as a way to escape persecution. That pissed off the local Arabs (understandably) and both of them started arguing—which was not usually violent until 1920-30ish.
That said, after it became a British Mandate (1917), Israel got a ton of international support. And obviously after WWII, they got whatever they wanted…. Which, was choosing violence.
A lot of the reason the Arabs got little support was because they were fragmented, with no leadership. Each of their revolts were seen as a threat and not a legitimate push back against colonization. And, after the Ottoman Empire fell, England and France “stole” that land, so revolts were more or less terrorism (in their eyes, of course).
The Jewish people began by buying the land legally in the late 1800s as a way to escape persecution.
This is completely ignoring the boycott and parallel society angle. What Zionists did in pre-mandate Palestine was also forced expulsion of Palestinians; the forcing part was simply delegated to the state. Had they simply wanted to settle in Palestine nobody would’ve minded, but that was fundamentally not what the Zionist project was.
According to Israeli historian Benny Morris, Zionism was inherently expansionist and always had the goal of turning the entirety of Palestine into a Jewish state. In addition, Morris describes the Zionists as intent on politically and physically dispossessing the Arabs.
The World Zionist Organization established the Jewish National Fund (JNF) in 1901, with the stated goal “to redeem the land of Palestine as the inalienable possession of the Jewish people.” The notion of land “redemption” entailed that the land could not be sold and could not be leased to a non-Jew nor should the land be worked by Arabs.[145] The land purchased was primarily from absentee landlords, and upon purchase of the land, the tenant farmers who traditionally had rights of usufruct were often expelled.
-Wikipedia
Nazis had nothing to do with the Jewish people establishing a homeland in Palestine.
Nazism had a lot to do with the German people expanding their homeland to Eastern Europe and Russia and murdering the inhabitants. Starting to see the similarities now? Nazism and Zionism are sister ideologies, both fruits from the same rotten tree that is European settler colonialism.
Anyone could argue that “my people deserve this” is a similar ideology. That’s just false equivalence. You are cherry picking, and ignoring a whole lot of history and intention.
Has Israel moved towards a similar ideology? Yes. But to claim in started out with that intent is just angry jaw flapping.
Anyone could argue that “my people deserve this” is a similar ideology.
“My people deserve this land at the expense of its current inhabitants” is fascism, or at least the underpinning thereof, so you’re not wrong there. Nazism, Zionism, Manifest Destiny, it is literally the same thing manifesting in different ways. Look up “blood and soil” and “Lebensraum”. Ben Gurion is literally on record saying “we must remove the Arabs and take their place”. The Nakba started before the founding of Israel. If you have an argument for how the Nakba was anything but fascism, let’s hear it, but so far you’re not saying anything of substance.
But to claim in started out with that intent is just angry jaw flapping.
Okay let’s try this. Try this online quiz and see if you can get more than 15/21.
It’s really easy to cherry pick similar statements from people and compare them and make a whole website. Anyone could do the exact opposite.
If you’re going to quote people, you need to use dates because as I have said before dates matter.
It’s really easy to cherry pick similar statements from people and compare them and make a whole website.
My dude non-fascists don’t say “when we settle [region], [group] will have no choice but to scurry like drugged cockroaches” (dated 1983 btw). Also the site has dates and sources for the quotes; most Zionist quotes are recent but a few are from the 20th century with two from before WWI. They even have one by Herzl himself. Zionism was and continues to use and be predicated on downright Nazi antisemitic propaganda about how Jews can never live with non-Jews and how diaspora Jews are sickly and weak and all that shit. That’s why they shit on Holocaust victims, for instance.
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Herlz also asked support from antisemites
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The result of the persecution against the Jews resulted in an influx of them going down there. However, the persecution was long before World War II and the Nazis did not directly assist that migration and therefore comparing the two groups as a team or descendants is offensive.
Facts:
- Zionism happened before Nazism.
- The migration of Jewish people to Palestine began long before WWII.
- The only thing the Nazis did was speed up that migration and establish international sympathy for the Jewish people.
Now, if you’re saying Israel today is Nazi-like… then yeah I agree completely.
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Zionists are similar tool of oppressiom to nazis
The Jewish people began by buying the land legally in the late 1800s as a way to escape persecution. That pissed off the local Arabs (understandably) and both of them started arguing—which was not usually violent until 1920-30ish
Arab was pissed of when the zionists plan became clear. Owning lands do not give you right to declare a state
There was a group of Yemeni jews who settled in palestine and people was fine with them. Arabs and those jews was going to each other festivities.
The state declaration was in 1948. Zionism was established in 1897.
That leaves 51 years for things to go wrong—and they did.
If things got pretty bad around 1920, that’s just a few years after Britain put its dirty cock in the mix. And I think we can both agree British colonialism has been the cause of a ton of problems.
Zionism was a solution to Jewish statelessness and persecution. In its early conception, Zionism was not a tool of oppression, but rather a form of self-determination.
Did Zionism become a genocidal maniac? Yes.
Zionism was a solution to Jewish statelessness and persecution. In its early conception, Zionism was not a tool of oppression, but rather a form of self-determination.
Zionists had no right to impose a state in any country. Even if the state was in Argentine or Japan or the USA, the population would have not accepted either. Facing a persecution is not a valid argument against imposing a state on the land of people who had nothing to do with the oppression .
No matter how peaceful the ideology started , fact is fact Zionism became violent and is the source of the whole conflicts with the help of the British empire.
I agree with you. Zionism did not start out similar to Nazism, and overtime, with the help of the British government, it became something significantly terrible and has lost all focus of the original intention: to escape persecution.
And… over years there have been more and more Pointless deaths – mostly caused by Israel. And in 2025, I don’t think anyone could argue against it being full on genocide against non-Jewish people in Palestine.
lost all focus of the original intention: to escape persecution.
They could have escaped percussion and live as normal citizens of Palestine but no the plan of Herzl was always to impose a state and displace the local population
Herzl’s Diary, 12 June 1895
The property owners will come over to our side. According to my conception, the majority of the local population will have to be transferred elsewhere.
We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country. - Herzl’s Diary, 12 June 1895
Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly - Herzl’s Diary, 12 June 1895
Nazi was quickly in position of power so they was able to execute their plan very fast at first Nazism exclusion, discrimination, and the removal of Jews from German society then the final solution and the holocaust . Zionism needed more time to do it. Now in 2025 we are in the final stage of Zionism , the complete eradication of Palestinians in Gaza and slowly continuing eating the west bank
The Nazis were doing mass shooting, the IDF did mass shooting and mass bombing. Both the Nazis and the idf are starving people. The Nazis used gas chambers, the idf is shooting at people seeking aids with the new terrorist organization claiming to be an aid organization.
I am not saying both are equally the same and that the genocide in Gaza is worse than the holocaust but i think it is still fair to compare both rhetoric and methods
Zionists collaborated with Nazis to help them deport Jews to Palestine.
The split is between governments and the general public. I don’t know too many individuals who are ok with what is going on. And if they are, they are being awfully quiet about it.
You should go and read some daily mail comments on articles about the war (genocide). They’re a bunch of frothing murderous horrors.
Those articles always get a bunch of trolls though.
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As someone who has to deal with real people at demonstrations regularly, these horrible genocidal sentiments are not just limited to internet trolls unfortunately.
Also as much as they are detached from the general population, all the politicians and Israel lobbyists and MIC lobbyists still are real people too.
The people who are okay with it are the ones who hate the Muslims. Which is a shockingly large number of people and governments.
But those people still elect those parties thst support israel. Why those parties would listen to people?
the Mayans missed it by like … 15 years
Idk. Seems like this was occurring in 2012 too.
no they were spot on. it just takes a while for the change to take effect in the outside world.
Is it? I don’t even hear anything out of the Arab states. It should but I don’t see much.
Because America successfully turned most of the Middle East into US puppet states. There’s a reason most of the region is ruled by autocratic regimes. The only Arabic-speaking country whose government is materially opposed to Israel now is Yemen.
This war is of course a huge tragedy, but as someone who sees gaza war as a local conflict borderline affecting few cities, I can’t help but chuckle how much lemmy ignores the largest country in the world waging war in Europe and only escalating by every month, while western countries can’t seem to keep up in production. It’s Russia who will break the world, not some conflict in middle east.
Lol, calling Russia the largest country in the world is a strange way to increase the might of a faded superpower who can’t deploy an army to win against a country much smaller than them.
It is absolutely a big deal and most of Europe offers financial, military and humanitarian assistance above what you’ll see on Lemmy. The difference is the genocide in Palestine is war crime after war crime. Sure, Russia commits and has committed war crimes, but even they follow most of the rules of war. Israel is genocidal. It’s supported by their people. It’s abhorrent.
I think Israel is foolish. They are protected by their international support and not viable on their own. Trump is unpredictable and nationalistic. They could get left out in the cold, like USA did to Ukraine very easily. Netanyahu has is ear. As does Putin and the Saudis. In trumps case, it’ll be what he can get. Israel have less to offer while requiring the funding the others don’t.
I think Israel is foolish. They are protected by their international support and not viable on their own. Trump is unpredictable and nationalistic.
That’s weird logic. If we’re going with Trump being unpredictable, then it really doesn’t matter what Israel does in terms of maintaining support from Trump.
And countries don’t base foreign policy based on what teenagers on the internet want. They base it on interests. What has Israel done that goes against anyone’s national interests? Iran is a thorn in everyone’s side, and Hezbollah has been weakened and cut off from easy supply from Iran because Assad’s regime is gone. It’s not in anyone’s interest for Iran to have nuclear weapons, and Israel has proven their capability in taking out Iran’s air defenses. The Houthis are a problem for global trade and Trump isn’t going to hit them as long as they keep to their deal and not hit US shipping.
So given everyone’s interests most countries might wag their finger at Israel publicly for political reasons, but people in power know that if their people were taken hostage by terrorists, they’d do much the same thing as Israel has done. The US has become unreliable in dealing with the middle east (not really caring about Houthis attacking other country’s shipping) so they need an ally in the region to keep Iran and their proxies in check. And Israel has demonstrated a lot of capability in that regard. So do you think countries are going to isolate Israel for the sake of a small group of protesters constantly shouting insane slogans?
I mean that Israel depends on usa support. That could disappear on a whim.
War crimes and normalised genocide is a risk to all countries sovereignty.
You’re looking at the current layout of the middle east. It’s a constantly changing unstable environment. Iran going nuclear is in nobodies interest but Iran.
Not punishing Russia for invasion of Ukraine showed the world that if you don’t want to be subject to larger countries rule, you need nukes. Ukraine is the only country to voluntarily give them up. Look how that turned out. Israel has not signed the non proliferation treaty. All other signatory countries have an obligation to stop them too. Where was that will?
Israel won’t be isolated due to protests. Israel receives support as a vassal state to be useful in the middle east. USA is no longer dependent on the middle east. Europe less so, but still dependent. Israel is therefore less useful. So support will end eventually, irrespective of Israel’s actions. Israel might hasten that end with actions that are politically damaging for the politicians in countries that enable their genocide.
What? No one’s ignoring Ukraine.
Literally most answers here disregard the dangers of Russia and my comment got downvoted into irrelevancy and then you claim that lmao
You were downvoted because no one is ignoring Ukraine.
Saying stuff like “the only way Russia can win is if someone bails them out” is ignoring the hard reality of conflict. There is a reason Russia no longer wants peace.
The only way Russia can win is if Trump bails them out. Which is a possibility, but that would just be Trump breaking things.
Please never become someone who makes important decisions in geopolitics
In repression of counter speech against genocide in almost all western countries to some degree their hand has been shown once again to be prioritizing order over law’s rotting corpse.
Not order. It’s control and oppression, a tale as old as mankind.
When are we going to talk about African wars?
When the US starts being the primary funder of them.
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There isn’t any difference between American arms and israeli arms
It’s actually China and Russia who’s funding them currently.
China and Russia are funding the anti “resistance“. It’s just a proxy war. Same exact thing the Afghanistan war was about
The genocide in Sudan is funded by the UAE which is an American proxy and best friends with Israel.
You’re beyond saving. You cannot even recognize why it matters if you’re participating in a genocide or not. A genocide is already happening, why not make a buck off of it? In a past life, you worked at IBM. There you sold computers to the Nazis to help them tabulate the Holocaust.
It’s their little pet conflict, they don’t care about anything else and arguably don’t really care about gaza or palestine. Most probably don’t even know the difference between the two.
If you call out obvious iranian propaganda or do so much as hinting at “using women and children as human shields is bad”, you are a zionist, genocide-apologist, blahblahblah.
Calling out antisemitism, especially within the self-proclaimed political left, is another sure way to get some ad hominem insults and/or threats.
That being said, your comment is still a straw man.
Israel does not have a future after this. They’re removing their own credibility, and the world knows it. They’re nothing but a rogue state at this point, waiting to be put to sleep like a rabid dog.
Like a dying star undergoing supernova. A rampant destruction at the end.
Israel does not have a future after this.
If Germany and Japan could have a future after WW2 - a war they lost categorically - Israel will do just fine in the coming decades, after successfully executing a full ethnic cleanse of some of the more valuable real estate in the Mediterranean.
Israel isn’t a rogue state, it’s a cat’s paw. They’re doing the dirty work as a proxy for allies who have wanted to wipe Arabs off that corner of the map for decades. In the end, however, you’re going to see western states welcome Israelis back into the fold with open arms, just so long as they can pin this all on Netanyahu and pretend it wasn’t a national project with the full support of the Israeli public.
Yes an entire population should be put down like a rabbid dog.
Seriously are you listening yourself? Genocide much?
The state of Germany was put down twice, completely dismantled, and ceded. There are still a lot of Germans around. Do you not differentiate between a state and the people residing in it?
We are all watching a holocaust live on TV, perpetrated by the victims of a holocaust 80 years ago
I’m pretty sure it’s just Trump breaking the world order and eroding the freedom of Americans.
When the Israel-Hamas war is over do you really think everything is going to go back to normal in the US and the rest of the world?
Myopic US take. The Israel lobby is all through the western world and has pushed almost every government into the corner of accepting this racist genocidal war lest they be labelled anti-Semitic.
Read the article. The most egregious violations occurred during the Biden administration. Biden is better at Trump as a whole, but on the Gaza issue, both have support for Israel locked in at 100%. People often fall for the marketing - Biden virtue signals while Trump vice signals. Biden made a few token show gestures towards Palestinian rights, and Trump gleefully celebrates his cruelty. But in terms of actual tangible support for Israel? Trump’s record is a direct continuation of Biden’s. The Biden admin for example were the first ones to propose the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. That isn’t something Trump came up with - he just vice signaled with his stupid ‘Gaza riviera’ plan, while Biden’s plan for ethnic cleansing was discussed quietly.
Could you source the statement about biden’s quiet discussion?
The complicity of many national governments in this genocide, including my own (Canada), will be remembered with disdain.
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This is .world you cannot get banned for supporting genocide.
that’s a bit of hyperbole. Gaza is happening because the institutions were already rotten, and not the other way around
Gaza is the latest in a long line of atrocities committed by countries ostensibly committed to a law of armed conflict.
Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria… hell the US interventions in Somalia and the former Yugoslavia were as horrifying as they were criminal. Sometimes we can find an exigent threat that gives us permission to use overwhelming force to brutalize the bad guys - as in Iraq '91 with the Kuwaiti invasion. Other times we just have to make some shit up, as with Grenada or Vietnam.
But this idea that we’ve had an international order for any of the last 77 years is more a reflection on the quantity of our propaganda than the quality of our international ethics. The total war Israel is conducting in Gaza, while the US hovers overhead threatening to flatten any Egyptian or Jordanian or Lebanese who attempts to intervene, has been historic in the degree to which far more cushy liberal rhetoric has been replaced with full-throated endorsement of ethnic cleansing.
But the policies themselves? We manufactured a famine in Afghanistan shortly after withdrawing the last US troops. We have repeatedly blocked countries with socialist governments from accessing international markets to obtain relief, such as Bangladesh in '74 and Ethiopia ten years later. Somalia has been under near constant assault by US Navy vessels “policing” the most lucrative fishing territories, driving up rates of piracy as a substitute for traditional subsistence farming. Then you’ve got the '91 famine in N. Korea and the '94 Cuban hunger crisis, both the consequence of US blockades.
Any one of these would be considered a modern-day Holodomor from the perspective of an objective outside observer. Unfortunately, Americans only get to hear about Gaza - and even then only in dribs and drabs on social media or alt-news publications - as they turn away from the traditional corporate-friendly press venues.
Ukraine lowers its head as nobody sees it with its hand up…
While I truely weep for Palestinians this is a large issue that is worldwide. Nobody gives a crap because it’s utter chaos everywhere
I would say the big distinction between Ukraine and Gaza is that in Ukraine there has been a meaningful (and enormously lucrative) project to arm locals in opposition to Russian invasion. It’s been of dubious success, given how much territory they still lost. But its difficult to say that the Biden Era government (or even Trump Term 1) wasn’t willing to shovel arms and mercenaries into Ukraine in an effort to cripple Russian advances.
In Gaza, the Israel blockade has gone virtually unchecked - outside of a few salvos from Yemen and some allegations of support from Iran and Hezbollah. Americans are supporting the genociders not the victims. There is no Gaza military left to repeal an invasion nor is there any appetite for a Hamas resistance to repeal IDF advances. At this point, it’s little more than a shooting gallery.
There’s a line of combat between Ukraine and Russia. There’s nothing in Gaza. Just Israelis and their private security contractors kettling and massacring neighborhood after neighborhood, then flagging bulldozers to knock down the houses when they’re done.
Late stage capitalism is killing the world
ban landlords.
It’s not “breaking the world” it’s literally showing the Israeli state for what it’s been all along, and israeli influence extends so far in the western culturescape that no one is able to actually speak the truth about it
But that’s what the author is saying. The “post war liberal order” of the last 77 years had mostly been a success of coming together to say that there are lines that can’t be crossed.
Now, at this point in the order’s timeline, those lines are being left so far in the rear view that they’re not visible anymore, while the empires that came to take down the holocaust are now cracking down on the people pointing this out. And critically, as pointed out later in the article, are taking notes for future wars.
Factor in the right wing fascists rising to power all over the world who are flagrantly walking all over decency and inflicting violence/turning the systems on enemies without much of a peep…well, things for the future look to be heading down a seriously dangerous path.
This isn’t business as usual. That is what they’re saying. They point out that this “established order” and international law have always been vulnerable to powerful actors moving the goalposts to serve and protect their interests. But this much drastic change in just a few years, specifically centered around Gaza is a horrific force—coupled with every other factor throughout the world— that seems to be upending any hopes for a decent future.
