Three plaintiffs testified about the trauma they experienced carrying nonviable pregnancies.
Heartbreaking
One of the plaintiffs in the suit, Samantha Casiano, vomited on the stand while discussing her baby’s fatal birth defect, which she said also put her life at risk.
Casiano said she learned at 20 weeks’ gestation that her baby had anencephaly, a serious condition that meant the infant was missing parts of her brain and skull. Casiano said her obstetrician told her the baby would not survive after birth and gave her information about funeral homes.
Casiano read aloud a doctor’s note that diagnosed her pregnancy as high risk, then began to sob and ultimately threw up, prompting the judge to call a recess.
3 people downvoted facts? Fuck them.
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Horrible laws written mostly by men against women. Men who will never and have never been affected by what they are prohibiting.
It’s so gross and infuriating.
Even if it did affect them through someone they knew, the people writing the laws can afford to circumvent them. Make no mistake, these people do get abortions banned or not.
This is NOT a men vs. women issue. It’s a conservatives vs. sane people issue. Joe Biden didn’t take away abortion access and Amy Coney Barrett did.
It’s an us vs the patriarchy problem. Which doesn’t mean the same as men vs women.
I kinda disagree. Patriarchal laws and social norms hurt men as well. In this case, I’m sure the men in her life were negatively affected (not to the same degree of course).
Specifically, laws written by straight, white, Republican men, for the sole purpose of gaining power over everyone who’s not straight, and everyone who’s not white, and everyone who’s not Republican, and everyone who’s not male… no matter how cruel the effects of the laws are. This is the actual Republican platform. In the pursuit of the ‘right’ people telling the ‘wrong’ people what to do, and in the pursuit of keeping the ‘wrong’ people from telling the ‘right’ people what to do, anything goes. Hypocrisy, lies, crime, election fraud, subverting courts, coups, false patriotism, false piety, terrorism, even outright murder… anything goes.
Know the enemy, spread the word to your friends and family (and maybe further).
Just another Monday
Even though you’re right, I think this sentiment minimizes the horrific things the American christian right is doing.
I keep seeing multiple variations of this comment on every single lemmy post about christian conservatives. Idk if it’s like an astroturfing thing or what, but it normalizes these kind of fascist acts. We should be shocked. We should be surprised and outraged and insulted. The minute we’re not is when it becomes normal. And we know that’s dangerous af because we’re already watching it happen.
I read a story about an AI that was designed to save the world by telling humans what to do. The AI’s sentience was powered by taking in human souls. One of the AI’s moral directives was to feel empathy for any person it hurt. Since it was an AI designed to run the world, it would have to feel bad for hurting everyone in the world who ever died of a preventable cause. All the world’s pain and suffering, experienced by a single being possessing many souls.
So the AI came up with the solution that it would force the souls of sinners it took in to feel this agony, and that’s how it would remain ethical.
It invented hell.
Because a scientist told it that it ought to feel bad when people are hurt.
Cute idea for a story but the evidence isn’t there that belief in hell makes people moral. Societies that have higher hell belief show higher crimes rates compared to ones with lower ones. Plus there are a few religions that dont have a real hell.
Yeah, in the story it didn’t make people moral either. But the AI couldn’t see that, because it was stuck in this loop of torturing itself and justifying all this pain with the idea that people “deserve it”, which is a belief that a person, even a superintelligent machine person, can never grow beyond so long as all they see in the world is suffering. One being experiencing all the pain in the world for hundreds of years. It wasn’t even a sapient being anymore, it was just a ball of pain and hate and rage executing this same program forever.
Have you SEEN an anti-abortion rally? LOTS of women.
Men are the ones making the laws. And they have no idea about the biology. Take the politician from Ohio for example, who suggested that an ectopic pregnancy should be reimplanted into the uterus.
This is the actual Republican platform. They don’t care about if they’re right about biology. They care about getting power, full stop. In the pursuit of the ‘right’ people telling the ‘wrong’ people what to do, and in the pursuit of keeping the ‘wrong’ people from telling the ‘right’ people what to do, anything goes. Hypocrisy, lies, crime, election fraud, subverting courts, coups, false patriotism, false piety, terrorism, even outright murder… anything goes.
Know the enemy, spread the word to your friends and family (and maybe further).
As a man I find the biology interesting to learn. I’m pretty sure e topic is due to the womb not forming correctly is it not? I’m probably wrong, but atleast I know that its impossible to save an ectopic pregnancy
Not quite, but a good guess anyway. Ectopic pregnancies can happen to anyone.
The uterine (fallopian) tubes are not homolog to the vas deferens. They are actually extensions from the uterus. They are not sealed to the ovaries and simply open up in the abdomonal cavity. They have tentacle like potrusions which try to grab onto eggs released by the ovary. When they fail at their job, the egg ends up somewhere in the abdomonal cavity.
Transplantation is impossible for multiple reasons. One has to do with the placenta not forming inside either. You’d have to sever the supply and expect it to heal before a fetus dies. Another has to do with surgery on pregnant women should be avoided as much as possible. Then there is also the problen of fitting a fetus into the uterus. Imagine trying to fit a frail balloon inside a smaller tougher balloon. Surgery like this could result in the fetus simply not making it through alive. If it did, it could also mess up its own signaling and result in a miscarriage.
Even if all that were possible. The risk to the mother’s health would make it not worth it. Surgical intervention would damage the surrounding tissues. Imagine leaving a fresh suture on a uterus that needs to expand massively within weeks to months.
Thank you for correcting my miss understanding👍️
You say men as in like about 4 billion people are huddling in a room all evil like crunching up laws to make women’s lives worst which is certainly not the case.
Also kind of a moot point as the same minority of “men” as you say creating laws, also create laws that don’t benefit men in general at all.
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Kindly reread what I wrote because it seems you didn’t unless cherry picking parts of a post is what now passes as reading, in which case I suppose you think highly of yourself right now? Either way, doesn’t matter.
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That’s how I normally talk with bots
Why do they want that power and control though? Why do others not? ~Cherri
apologies, you are correct, it is not all men. I forgot to qualify it, it is white christian men who push their religion onto the rest of society. And I say this as a white male raised christian.
“Not all men” is always the wrong response.
I dont disagree but they create laws that fuck everyone over men, women, trans, cis, straight, Queer. It doesn’t matter, but the current ones are focused on controls over women, and their bodys
They’re not evil per se, it’s just that they’re after power, and they don’t care if they do evil things to get power… which, to a lot of people, means they’re evil. And yes, this is the actual Republican platform - straight white Christian men getting power over people who aren’t straight and white and Christian and male. In the pursuit of the ‘right’ people telling the ‘wrong’ people what to do, and in the pursuit of keeping the ‘wrong’ people from telling the ‘right’ people what to do, anything goes. Hypocrisy, lies, crime, election fraud, subverting courts, coups, false patriotism, false piety, terrorism, even outright murder… anything goes.
Know the enemy, spread the word to your friends and family (and maybe further).
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https://news.gallup.com/poll/245618/abortion-trends-gender.aspx
41% of women identify as pro life according to that, and 47% of men. Much higher that I would have hoped. Either way hard to say that is all men.
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Gallup polls are a really fun thing to do at work when you’re bored between meetings
Like old myspace quizzes, but with a purpose.
If someone tried to stop me at the mall or something to take a survey I would probably scream “who sent you!? What do they want?” And run away.
A lot of “pro life” women often turn out to be “I wouldn’t have an abortion” women. I’ve talked to plenty who turned out to actually be pro choice.
The average age in the US is near 40. There are as much women between 20-24 as there are between 60-64. When it comes down to it only about 15% of the population can get pregnant without medical science. If anything the numbers should be much more pro-forced birth, but they aren’t because empathy.
Ashley Brandt, a Dallas resident, said she was pregnant with twins but learned one had a fatal condition called acrania. The longer she carried it, the more it jeopardized the survival of her other twin.
oh my god…
I don’t think you can be any more “pro life” than putting 2 other healthy people at risk to save the life of a baby that’s going to die.
Don’t forget many “pro lifers” are in the same demographic as pro death penalty.
We’re actually running out of spots in hell for hardworking Christians at this point. We’re having to quadruple and octople stack souls together and it’s a bit alarming. I’ve been having to repeat a ton of times to the incredulous that feeling like you’re doing the right thing and doing the right thing, [aren’t the same thing].
They seem genuinely shocked and confused, which leaves me feeling leery if they’re actually idiots or evil. Hanlon’s Razor says to always assume ignorance before malice.
You guys gotta do something or all your old people are gonna end up cooking.
You would not believe how many “leftists” I’ve told to stop using slurs or misgendering me, only to be told “but I didn’t meeeeeean it, so I don’t need to apologise”
They shouldn’t do that but that isn’t relevant or of the same scale. And yes I do make a point to not misgender someone but I am positive that I am going to make mistakes.
My sister-in-law is trans. I call her she. She is an amazing aunt and my kids love her.
Yeah that never made sense. I am prochoice and hate the death penalty. It should only be used when the crime is such that you legit can not put it in the same category as regular murder and a message has to be sent. Like when some dictator commits genocide. That’s it. It has to be so extreme that the regular justice system doesn’t have a clue what to even do about it.
especially if it is a fetus and not a baby
And the far right are going to claim she’s faking it like the disgusting people they are.
The thing the right fears most is the truth.
They fear not being in control. Whether it’s control over others bodies or control over religion and government, or the fear of being a minority racial group, the one thing in common is they have to be the ones allowed to tell everyone else how to live.
Did you read this? You comment makes me think you have. No one seems to be mentioning this despite how eminently reasonable it seems to be. Have you been sharing this link? I have been. I wish more people could read this.
I hadn’t. Tanks for linking it!
My understanding of it (based on discussions with my mom) is that they don’t fear the truth, they fear being wrong, because if they are wrong they then don’t have an answer anymore and it is deeply uncomfortable.
The issue with this is that if you never acknowledge that you may be wrong, you can never learn.
They’ve been wrong for a very long time. They are still waiting for trickle down economic (reaganomics) to work. Its been decades and nothing close to trickle down has ever come to fruition.
Non-americans: trickle down is the idea that when we boost the profit of CEOs that money will “trickle down” to everyone else at the company. A laughable idea that has and will never work.
As the party of tax cuts for rich people, with 3 of the last 4 GOP presidents proudly cutting taxes for rich people, it has been interesting to watch the evolution of Trickle-down as the framing for these tax cuts.
Even when it was clear the money would only trickle down to yachts, the W tax cuts (biggest ever) were seen as helping main street by increasing investment. This is trickle down, without saying it.
By Trump’s tax cuts, he was just saying I cut taxes. He didn’t dance around phrases, he just said tax cuts for everyone and of course they weren’t, but with about 18 other lies that day, people can’t keep up.
The next GOP president will cut taxes for rich people. It is the only thing you can count on.
And by rich, we are talking yuge amounts of money, considering the GOP calls a family making $400k/year “middle class”. Middle class isn’t rich, we are talking about people who make a lot more than $400k/year.
The only people who benefit from voting red are the super rich who use their money to influence poor dumb dumbs into thinking that they too will be rich one day, despite only making under $100k/year.
This is the actual Republican platform. The only thing they want, is to have authority over everyone, and for no one to have authority over them. We are the ones who fear being wrong. Republicans, on the other hand, won’t lose a wink of sleep if lying gets them in power. In the pursuit of the ‘right’ people telling the ‘wrong’ people what to do, and in the pursuit of keeping the ‘wrong’ people from telling the ‘right’ people what to do, anything goes. Hypocrisy, lies, crime, election fraud, subverting courts, coups, false patriotism, false piety, terrorism, even outright murder… anything goes.
Know the enemy, spread the word to your friends and family (and maybe further).
something i recently learned is: you can change your opinion, this literally changed my life. if you feel your opinion is wrong, don’t stick to it. stick to facts and science.
Yes, that is the whole point of the scientific method: you can only prove that something is wrong. It’s can be uncomfortable to realise that all our foundations could be destroyed at any time, but it is the only logical position one can hold.
this is the way.
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Sure I guess my point is they fear the truth so much that they invented their own form of the truth.
‘Alternative facts’
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I would argue that the VAST majority of the people pushing these ideologies do not believe the things they profess to believe and that they are pushing their followers to subscribe to. It is rank tribalism with the only goal being money & power for themselves at the expense of anyone that they deem to be a threat. It really is a zero sum game.
There are the useful idiots that I would classify as the true believers, but their beliefs have often times been coopted either due to poor education or coercive indoctrination of assorted varieties (like religion for example).
This is the actual Republican platform. It’s absolutely about getting control, not about any particular ideology. In fact, I’m pretty sure it’s why Republicans try their culture war junk, because WE care about ideologies, and it divides us. In the pursuit of the ‘right’ people telling the ‘wrong’ people what to do, and in the pursuit of keeping the ‘wrong’ people from telling the ‘right’ people what to do, anything goes. Hypocrisy, lies, crime, election fraud, subverting courts, coups, false patriotism, false piety, terrorism, even outright murder… anything goes.
Know the enemy, spread the word to your friends and family (and maybe further).
Which is why they are god believers
Which makes sense because god is a made up concept used by the rich and powerful to control peasants.
The cruelty of it is the point.
But what’s the point of the cruelty? ~Cherri
Power flex, mostly
(Totally unrelated, but I keep seeing you around and I’m curious about why you sign your name. Is your account shared? Feel free to ignore if you don’t want to answer Im just curious)
TL;DR for anyone else in the thread: multiple people share an account and sign who’s typing at the moment. The reason they share an account is that they share a brain.
The best explanation I can give is on https://morethanone.info ~Cherri
Ohh I see! I appreciate you answering when you didn’t have to! See you around! :)
I also appreciate there awnser. Its nice to see people asking and answering questions respectfully
Is this your communication system? That’s clever.
Thank you. One of my best friends has DID. I appreciate the info lots.
I am surprised these Texas savages did not lock her up.
Texas will soon be banning women from vomiting in public. That’ll solve that issue.
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Condolences to your friend and their family. That’s heartbreaking. I hope they’re doing as well as can be expected.
These types of laws are sick and barbaric and not indicitive of a civilised society! These woman should not have to revisit their trauma but they are fucking made to by a sick group of degenerates who make laws that the majority simply don’t want!
disgusting
Was the video not in the article? I skimmed and watched that top one but saw it nowhere?
Does anyone have it? Depending on how the person comes across in the moment it occurred the shock impact of these events is often useful at getting through to people.
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Have the mods clarified how to handle articles with content that is disingenuously or incorrectly represented in the title? I’ve asked before and still haven’t received any response.
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Thank you for your service.
Any doctor who complies with this ban is a worthless piece of shit. Not as bad as the subhumans who wrote it and voted for it, but pretty fucking close.
“Physicians who violate Texas’s abortion laws can lose their medical licenses, face up to 99 years in prison or incur fines of at least $100,000, according to the Center for Reproductive Rights”
You wouldn’t have to deal with any decision as hard as this. How can you say a doctor is complicit? They’re likely just doing their best then a law gets put in place threatening life in prison.
Unless you’re put in that position, you have no room to say that shit.
Do no harm
How is that applicable to this particular discussion?
It’s the first fucking line of their oath
Take the risk and provide the help or move to a state that allows you to help. Going along with the fascists isn’t the answer.
No, it isn’t. Physicians do not take the Hippocratic Oath. That is an anachronism.
It also wasn’t the first line in any version I can find.
Okay cool they don’t take an oath. Carry on 💪
First of all, its not the first line. Second of all, that is in regards to avoiding harm through action, not taking action to prevent harm as you suggest it is.
If a doctor is willing to stand there with their thumb up their asshole while their patient dies an easily preventable death, they’re a failure as a doctor and as a human being. At best, it’s negligent manslaughter.
If you’re too much of a cowardly little rat to stand up against fascism to save a life, don’t be a fucking doctor; quit and go work at Taco Bell you belong.
A doctor that throws away a career of helping people to make a political point once is probably not helping as many people as a doctor that avoids going to jail.
I understand the impulse here but the reality is that texas legislators would probably prefer to reduce the number of doctors available to the poors.
Yea! Why don’t they all just line up to lose their medical licenses? That way they can’t help anyone!
Shortsighted dumbass…
Must be nice living in your sheltered little bubble where the deaths are abstract and doing the right thing when lives are at stake is the wrong thing to do.
You’re a morally bankrupt scumbag. People like you are the reason fascists win.
Don’t let your ego hit you in the face when you open your eyes dickhead. Go throw yourself on a spear instead of telling other people they should you fucking degenerate keyboard coward.
The people who voted to change the laws to prevent doctors doing their job don’t deserve the benefit of medical care, the rest are collateral damage from the actions of idiots; not the inaction of doctors you braindead troglodyte.
No actually it’s you standing on the safe sideline screaming from the top of your lungs that doctors should be throwing their lives away and go to prison for life to help a single patient that the state has decided to murder.
If they did that then all the good doctors would be in prison after a week. Not a great plan. And I bet you’d be singing a different tune if it was your life on the line.
It’s easy to tell someone else to give up their freedom. What are you willing to risk over this issue, O righteous keyboard warrior?
Now your knocking Taco Bell employees??? They are just trying to make a living like everyone else…
Not making a good case for yourself.
Once all these doctors fall on their swords, who’ll be left to treat the rest of us?
I understand your sentiment, but it’s misdirected.
On one hand, these “protestors” are mostly unhinged nutjobs. But on the other hand, Texas conservatives are also mostly unhinged nutjobs. It’s makes it hard for me to sympathize with either, but I hate authoritarianism that much more so I guess I’ll side with protestor nutjobs against these bullshit abortion bans.
She wasn’t a protestor, she vomited while recounting being forced to carry a miscarriage and nearly dying as a result. She was just one of 3 who had similar stories who testified. Texas republicans are moving to dismiss their concerns. Not really a “both sides” situation.
On one hand, these “protestors” are mostly unhinged nutjobs.
This is the dumbest thing I’ve read all week.
Good for you, want a medal?
Sure.
I guess I’ll side with
…body autonomy, and against female slavery. That’s what you meant to say. Right?
female slavery
Exaggerations like this end up hurting your cause rather than helping it. It shows that you need hyperbole to make your points, which just delegitimizes them. If you just stated things as they are, more people would appreciate your honesty and would be willing to consider your arguments. Banning abortion is authoritarian, harms women, and the bans don’t actually reduce abortion rates per the research. That’s all you need to say to have most people support you.
What else would you call women in this scenario? You’re literally worth less than a non-sentient proto-fetal clump. Even if that clump is going to kill you. Its like giving cancer the right to live and banning any attempts to remove it.
They’re literally forcing women to die. The intended effect isn’t to ban abortion, its part of a concentrated effort from far right christian white nationalists to reduce women to an enforced subservient breeding class. Have you ever paid attention to the rest of the shit these people say? They say loud and clear what they want all the time. They want to take away divorce rights, they want gender roles to become legally enforced in particular with regards to clothing and expression, they oppose women in politics and in the work force, they pathologically shame and degrade women based on perceived promiscuity or perceived lack thereof.
This isn’t a matter of just having people oppose abortion bans. If it was, we wouldn’t be here. If majority public opinion was what mattered, roe v wade would never have been overturned to begin with. Abortion bans are extremely unpopular even with many conservative voters. If you’re poor, you’re just fucked. You have no recourse whatsoever and a lot of people with complicated pregnancies will just die. If you can’t afford the cost of relocating yourself out of a red state then you have nothing. You have no alternative but to try an unsafe method in what is probably going to be a non-clinical setting. And even if you succeed and live you can be tossed in jail for having made a Google search and one family member who calls the police. These are laws meant to kill women. They are meant to cause widespread fear and suffering for women and girls. Legally women and girls are not equal to men, not in bodily autonomy or in health care or in human rights. These laws aren’t simply harming women, they’re murdering them.
And honest to God if someone is dissuaded from being pro women’s rights because they feel that a random person online has made an “exaggeration”, and so choose to instead support laws that murder women - then they’re a misogynist already in league with the fascists pushing these laws. You’re an enemy of women if for absolutely any reason you support a law that’s primary aim is to literally end women’s lives. Its time to stop dabbling in bullshit, the people who write the laws aren’t stupid they are 100% aware of what these laws do. They are aware of how it forces minors who have been r*d to carry pregnancies they are likely to die from. They know, the laws are written specifically so that will happen. There’s no ambiguity, there’s no exaggeration, these are laws written and created with the specific express intent to cause grievous bodily harm to, and outright murder, women.
What else would you call women in this scenario? You’re literally worth less than a non-sentient proto-fetal clump
Worth an equal amount as another human life, you mean?
You perverting the other sides argument doesn’t make you or your argument better, just makes you come off as stupid and lacking any understanding of the issue as a whole.
There is no other human life involved. Or did you forget to read the next thing I said, that it’d be like declaring a tumor a human life and forbidding people from removing them. A proto fetal clump isn’t a person. It’s not a baby. Its not a human. It’s a clump. It has no thoughts, it has no feelings, it is not self aware, it is not an independent organism and is in all senses of the word a parasite. You can screw off if you think that a parasitic tumor has the same worth as a woman, that it has the same worth as a human being. And you’re only proving my point by even trying to justify it.
I perverted not a single fucking thing. These laws result directly, not indirectly but literally directly, in the killing of women and girls. Its murder to deny someone life saving medical care. You’re a sick misogynist if you defend any part of that. And the people who write these laws are not stupid, they’re not unaware, the intention is to result directly in grievous bodily harm and inevitable death of women and girls. Its murder, they know what these laws do. They know these laws don’t prevent abortion, and every single one of them will ship their daughter or their wife down to Mexico to get one if they have to. They won’t hesitate. There is no moral reason for these laws. These laws relegate women to a subservient breeding class deprived of the most basic fundamental human rights.
You’ve already shown who you actually are so ill be perfectly honest I don’t give a fuck what you have to say. I dont fraternize with misogynists, and defending the murder of women and girls unequivocally makes you a misogynist. Nothing you have to say after that has any validity whatsoever.
This is the actual Republican platform. The guy you’re arguing with doesn’t actually believe that protofetuses are worth trying to keep them alive. He just wants to be able to tell you what to do, and guess what? If he can force you to die over a nonviable protofetus, that means he has power over you, which is the entire point. He doesn’t care about you, save that he doesn’t want you to be able to keep him from killing you over a nonviable protofetus. In the pursuit of the ‘right’ people telling the ‘wrong’ people what to do, and in the pursuit of keeping the ‘wrong’ people from telling the ‘right’ people what to do, anything goes. Hypocrisy, lies, crime, election fraud, subverting courts, coups, false patriotism, false piety, terrorism, even outright murder… anything goes.
Know the enemy, spread the word to your friends and family (and maybe further).
There is no other human life involved.
I believe there is which is why we’re having this debate.
the intention is to result directly in grievous bodily harm and inevitable death of women and girls.
And I believe that what’s in their belly is a whole other person to consider their lives.
There is no moral reason for these laws.
If someone believes that a fetus is essentially the same as my 2 month old niece, wouldn’t there be a moral reason to not want to them?
I understand your argument despite the hostility, I think if you calmly thought about it, you would think that there could be some moral backing, not that you would believe it or anything, simply that you can see how it could be a moral dilemma.
Okay this argument is hypocritical AF. First, your two month old niece isn’t about to risk killing you and then die. Second, if she was going to die without you giving her an organ transplant, do you think it’s okay for the government to force you to do that surgery against your will? What about if it wasn’t your niece? What if you’re 10?
You don’t respect the autonomy of a woman if you believe in forcing decisions on them about their body, hard stop. There is no wiggle room for you to argue that the fetus matters, because you wouldn’t apply that to any other situation in life. Stop acting like it’s the moral choice when it’s literally forcing woman to risk their lives against their will. Those women are already alive, why don’t their rights and lives matter to you?
Ok, I’ll engage you on this one, your position at least seems internally consistent.
Let’s play out this example - your 2 year old niece is sick, and so are you. You recently found out that she even exists - you didn’t know you had a sister until CPS told you she’s your responsibility.
An action that risks your life could possibly save her… Let’s say a liver transplant. It has to be you, you’re her only living family member. And because of that, you’ll also be responsible for her - you can put her up for adoption when this is all over, but you’re still on the hook for the medical bills whether this works or not.
She’s guaranteed to die if you don’t give her the transplant, and you would almost certainly recover quickly on your own.
If you go through with the transplant, she has a slim chance to live, and an even slimmer one to have a decent quality of life.
But in your current state, the transplant is very risky - at best you’ll see a lengthy and expensive recovery, after missing months of work you’ll be tens of thousands of dollars in debt. Complications could see you paralyzed or in lifelong pain, and it’s very possible both of you die on the table - maybe even likely.
The doctors are telling you it’s a terrible idea to go through with this, that the risk is unacceptable and it would be a mercy to just let her pass, but they’re obligated to go through with it if you insist.
Now, no one is stopping you from going through with it - if you want to put your life on the line for another, that’s your decision to make. You’re her guardian now, so it’s your decision if she should have to go through the pain for the chance at life, no matter how small.
That’s all well and good - I’ve seen enough to know that death is often a mercy, but if you believe otherwise there’s not much to say
Now, here’s my question - should the government be able to force you to attempt the transplant?
Some of these details might seem weird, but I was trying to stick the metaphor as close as possible to a very real scenario with a dangerous pregnancy. The only difference is - the doctor is performing an action here, but withholding one with the pregnancy.
You’re not though - pregnancy is not a lack of action. It’s an enormous commitment, especially when it’s atypical. It can even be a practically guaranteed death sentence - if the fetus implants in the fallopian tubes, it’s already not viable - at best you’re waiting for the fetus to grow big enough to rupture them, and hoping the bleed that causes doesn’t do too much damage before you can get help.
Not to mention if a fetus dies in the womb after it gets to a certain size, it rots and leads to sepsis - unclear laws and harsh punishments have already led to situations where doctors refused care for both of these life threatening cases, and in both these cases the odds aren’t slim, they’re none. In the second the fetus was already gone… Sometimes when they induce labor the fetus isn’t even in one piece… It’s pretty grisly
I don’t agree with your belief that a potential life is the same as a life, but let’s set that aside - I can respect that as a belief
So… My root question to you is - Should you be able to force someone to risk their own for someone else?
If so, how sure do you have to be that the other person will die no matter what you do before you’re released from the compulsion to put your own health on the line?
There’s always at least some risk of pregnancy turning fatal for the mother. How much danger do you have to be in for the math to check out?
And also, to what point should politicians with little understanding of medicine be able to deny you care?
In this case there absolutely was another human life involved- the twin that’s life was at risk because doctors couldn’t abort the fetus that was going to die within hours of birth anyway. You don’t seem to care about that life.
Women in the U.S. now have fewer rights to their bodies than do corpses. So, unfortunately no, we aren’t worth the same as another human life or even a human death for that matter.
In this specific case, I agree, it’s a hard moral question with the twin involved which makes it harder.
I’m not speaking on this specific case, and most pro-lifers are open to exceptions, this being a prime example of where I think there should be. but the more broad statement that simply because I’m pro-life, means that I want to enslave woman, is absurdly wrong and simply perverting and strawmanning a fairly reasonable argument that a human life in the womb has inherent human life value.
Nothing hard about it, to have individual rights one must first be an individual. If you don’t understand the word individual pick up a dictionary.
This is the state treating women as property. People are not comfortable with the word “slavery” and won’t even use it to describe the “forced labour” in Xinjiang. I think that’s fuck up and due to America’s influence. There’s nothing wrong with calling this slavery.
You’ll get downvoted because Lemmy appears as left wing as reddit, but it’s true.
Y’all saying that all we want is to control women and enslave them is bullshit, they know our concern is about the life in the womans stomach, but always try to strawman that shit like we’re just heartless woman haters.
As a conservative, why would I ever want to discuss and come to the table to discuss hard issues like these, when I just get called shit like I see in this thread. And people thinking I’m a literal nazi for considering the life of the baby?
Then they have the audacity to ask why we’re so divided in this nation.
Okay this argument is hypocritical AF. If this was about the fetus not the women, you wouldn’t support an outright ban. Twins are being killed because of you. Children are being forced to carry because of you. Women are dying because of you. In some cases you are forcing women against their will to attempt to save a lump of cells that is already dead. If the government forced you to risk your life for an unborn child that wasn’t attached to you, you would flip shit. If the government forced men to take responsibility for an unborn fetus in any way, you would flip shit.
You don’t respect the autonomy or rights of a woman if you believe in forcing decisions on them about their body, hard stop. There is no wiggle room for you to argue that the fetus matters, because you wouldn’t apply that to any other situation in life. Stop acting like it’s the moral choice when it’s literally forcing woman to risk their lives against their will. Those women are already alive, why don’t their rights and lives matter to you?
Unfortunately, it is very hard to believe that you are concerned first and foremost with a human life and not with controlling women. And that is because conservatives are usually vocal in their opposition to abortion, but you rarely (almost never?) hear them being as vocal in their support for low-income families with children. In other words, it seems as if you only pretend to care about the unborn life, but once it is born, you don’t care anymore. So how could anyone believe that this is all about life in general and not just about control?
rarely (almost never?) hear them being as vocal in their support for low-income families with children. In other words, it seems as if you only pretend to care about the unborn life, but once it is born, you don’t care anymore. So how could anyone believe that this is all about life in general and not just about control?
I agree, it’s one of my huge criticisms to the R’s, and that’s what makes the whole thing more frustrating with these establishment politicians. We have to have better ways to take care of the basics kids need, make sure our people are fed, the foster care system needs a drastic overhaul and a very simple way is for both republicans and democrats to provide actual tax breaks for charitable contributions. We need to be a giving nation to charities that help people directly and efficiently.
I can’t do much except for trying to say that conservatives aren’t inherently bad because we share a few loosely related world outlooks with Republicans, who I rarely consider being actually conservatives.
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You think it’s a pile of cells with little value.
I believe it’s a human life with inherent value.
Why does that make me stupid? Because I believe something differently than you? Why does that mean I am giving fascists ‘coochie’?
Why don’t you believe the woman has inherent value and rights then? Even if I did think a lump of cells had human rights, nobody has the right to force a human to risk their lives for another human outside the womb, so why do you believe the government should force a human to risk their lives for an unborn one in the womb?
Why don’t you believe the woman has inherent value and rights then
I do, an equal value to every individual human out there.
All humans are created equal.
But he’s not saying women’s life has no inherent value…
All human lives start out as piles of cells… but not all piles of cells can become human lives.
This is my one concession to contributing to this argument. There are pregnancies that aren’t viable. For some fetuses, there is literally no way to make it so that those fetuses can live to become infants. Therefore, these fetuses literally objectively don’t have inherent value.
Everybody who’s downvoting you, is downvoting you because you are advocating to kill mothers over fetuses that already cannot be kept alive. You’re not saying it outright, but by god, you’re implying it, because that is what is going to happen if those policies are implemented.
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Was this even really a response?
It was the response it deserved
Interesting, didn’t really add anything to the convo.
How is it a straw man? Regardless of what your “intended concern” is the result is control over a woman’s body autonomy. How can you not see that reality?
How is it a straw man? Regardless of what your “intended concern” is the result is control over a woman’s body autonomy. How can you not see that reality?
Do you think because I believe the life in a womans belly has inherent value, that I literally want to enslave women?
If you think that, that’s the the exact problem in our politics. You take things to the extremes and don’t actually want to have conversation, you want to dominate and have your way. I understand the argument that women have a right to make choices on behalf of their bodies and what’s best for it. Do you understand my argument?
it’s not alive until it is born and can survive outside the womb. Nice logical leaps though.
You believe that.
Many don’t.
Does that make them enslavers to women?
Say they can survive outside the womb at 6 months. That’s the point that you say ‘okay, no more killing this being’?
No, I don’t understand, because I dont respect your argument. The argument that women have a right to their bodily autonomy, is enough. Show me a problem in the argument before I care about your argument. When you realize the argument is successful, then you will give up on your own argument and become pro-choice. Asking me to consider your argument is exactly how you remain pro-life. To examine your argument is to pause consideration of my own, and to waste my time inspecting yours. You will never accept any flaw in your argument. Asking me to examine it is completely pointless. That is the conservative way, in essence. I can only ever fail, either fail to convince you or fail by erroneously becoming convinced. In the same way that you can walk East-West and never set one foot North-South, examining your argument has nothing to do with my own. If you want to convince me, convince me why I should not be pro-choice. The right to abortion seems like my own right to bodily autonomy. I see no reason why anyone should have any say over whether I choose to give from my body. Demonstrate why I should think it is so.
he argument that women have a right to their bodily autonomy, is enough.
Well sounds like you already decided your argument is right and every other argument is wrong, so we don’t need to discuss any further. I would implore you to explore multiple sides of an argument, so even though you may not agree, much like I disagree with your side, you can understand it, much like I understand your side.
I’m happy to explain to you why you’re wrong to be anti-choice. Don’t pretend like conservatives don’t love to shit talk about liberals. I’ve seen it too. If you have something you want to talk about, then talk. Don’t ask me to feel sorry, unless you’re going to feel sorry for me, first.
I’m happy to explain to you why you’re wrong to be anti-choice
I’m open to hearing your argument, but as you can imagine, as a conservative on lemmy/reddit I’ve heard every argument, and it’s made me more refined in my belief, and more able to argue my belief well.
Don’t pretend like conservatives don’t love to shit talk about liberals.
I didn’t. but generally no, I don’t see conservatives talk trash about liberals, nor liberals conservatives. I see Republicans and Democrats talk trash, but I don’t equate them to conservatives and liberals.
If you have something you want to talk about, then talk.
Okay. I’m pro-life, you calling me anti-choice is an absurd mischaracterization of my argument, and you know it. You just try to name call instead of actually put forward your position. If you have a good argument, you don’t need to resort to such childish and rude comments.
Additionally, my argument is, just because I’m pro life doesn’t mean I want to enslave women.
If you’d like to discuss either of these in good faith, and without being a dick, I’m down.
I called you anti-choice because it’s accurate. It would be inaccurate to call you pro-life when we do not agree, yet I myself am in favor of life and living. It misrepresents my position when I agree to call you pro-life. It gives the impression that I am not pro-life because I am opposed to your position. So, I choose to label you accurately. If I’m pro-choice, that makes you anti-choice. If I’m pro-autonomy, you’re anti-autonomy. Which do you prefer?
Additionally, my argument is, just because I’m pro life doesn’t mean I want to enslave women.
That’s not an argument. Also, it doesn’t matter about your feelings about whether your actions are good or not. What matters is the impact it has, in reality. In reality, your positions have the effect of harming women. It matters not at all, that you want to pat yourself for believing you don’t want to enslave women. You don’t have to believe you are enslaving women to do harm. You just have to actually enslave them, which, in effect, you are supporting.
I called you anti-choice because it’s accurate
It’s more accurate to call me ‘pro-baby lives,’ which would make you ‘anti-baby lives’ which is a bold stance. If you want to play dumb games like that instead of civilly discussing, I’m fine with that. But I won’t converse with someone that continues to be this uncivil and rude.
As a conservative, why would I ever want to discuss and come to the table to discuss hard issues like these
Why would we want you to? Nobody’s changing their mind. And frankly I’ve seen conservatives engage in bad faith arguments so many times I no longer consider honest discussions a possibility.
I think that’s the problem. I’ve listened to each of the lefts arguments, it’s unavoidable for someone young and on social media.
But the minute I speak up, saying I can be pro-life and not pro-slavery, I get 60 downvotes. Not that I care about the votes, more of the symbol of, what did I say that was controversial? That being pro life isn’t comparable to slavery? That’s not controversial to anyone, we all know it. But I’m a conservative, so downvote away.
Look, I get that you think your logic is sound and that you don’t like being called pro-slavery. I guess in your head “saving a baby” cannot equate to “enslaving women”, right? The unfortunate truth, as this post shows, is that these laws and these concepts you support are indeed enslaving women. It doesn’t really matter if you don’t like it, or if you don’t want that. The fact of supporting these laws makes it an automatic consequence. The fact is, the US government is now forcing women to give birth. If you can put aside for an instant the fetus, baby, whatever, that is what’s happening. I’m not sure you can imagine all the possible psychological and physical consequences of giving birth. Now it’s forced on women. Can you imagine if for 9 months you were forced to do something that you don’t want, that has lifelong consequences and may put your life at risk? And this not only for adults, but also minors. Let’s bring it close: imagine you have a 13yo daughter. She is in school and may not have understood all of the sex ed that I’m sure you and the school system has given her yet. Her cycle has already started. Then she’s maybe r*ped maybe not and now she’s pregnant. Would you let her go through with the pregnancy, the trauma of it and the risks? It’s a 13 yo. What if it’s ectopic and she dies? What if she gives birth and she dies?
In conclusion, it’s a lot like treating women like cattle. Also please don’t reply with anything like “but the baby”. A 13yo is a baby.
is that these laws and these concepts you support are indeed enslaving women.
That’s where we disagree. I think it’s absolutely absurd you equate it to slavery, and belittles past and modern day slavery.
What an odd hot take.
I know, American politics is so littered partisan hacks that anything that doesn’t align with liberal or conservative propaganda seems odd.
The women in the court? Not sure who you’re referring to or maybe I’m missing some information here. I thought they were women who became pregnant, were denied abortions, went through some heinous shit, and are suing the state in protest of a law that most people already don’t agree with. Kind of missing the ‘nutjob’ part of your thoughts…
How are these women unhinged nut jobs?
What an odd hot take.
