I am surpringly annoyed about Americans somehow finding a way to make this about themselves.
In reality I’m much more worried about the likely counterreformist pushback that is likely about to happen. We’re about to find out if a remarkably powerful organization’s leader was able to seed enough support to secure a politically aligned successor, and if the answer is “no” a bunch of organizations are about to get even more ruthlessly conservative at a time when a new strain of fascism is seeking moral support. The Catholic Church has been here before. It didn’t go well.
Yeah. It’s more than annoying, especially as it’s the same old Vance joke again and again and again.
Which isn’t even clever.
I am not a Christian by any means but I worked with them quite often. Francis did change a lot of things and while he wasn’t in no way perfect - he did have his drawbacks, for a fucking pope he was much better than anyone before him within the last few hundred years.
People (especially on the internet)nowadays expect other people, especially political leaders to “check all their boxes” and if one thing is not going as far as they want, they are alienated.
Often I have the impression that as long as someone is not going “all the way” in the right direction they are seen as bad as someone who does not do anything at all or goes in the wrong direction. (Which is ironic because the church itself has evolved past the “saint or sinner” directive)
Francis has been going in the right direction probably 60% of the way and 10% in the wrong direction. Is the Catholic church there yet? No.
Is there a big chance it might turn back? Yes.
Would he been elected if he was so reformist it was sure he would topple everything and go 100%? Surely not.
But he did much more than any of his predecessors did.
Any much more most commenters do.
Besides: It’s okay to feel sorry for an old man dying. That’s called fucking compassion.
I work in healthcare and have seen a lot of people die. I feel sorry for almost all of them.
“Francis appointed nearly 80% of the cardinal electors who will choose the next pope, increasing the possibility that his successor will continue his progressive policies, despite the strong pushback from traditionalists.”
The catch is that he did not appoint by ideology. His appointments were mainly based on the guys doing work for poor people, for migrants, and on them doing their jobs in the global south.
Quite a few of these he made cardinals are somewhat conservative in their views, especially regarding sexuality
It helps a bit that typically those that have more compassion tend to be more liberal, but in general even the more liberal Catholics tend to be somewhat conservative
I mean, there are catholic priests and officials that are very liberal - they do exist. But those people do usually not even get into a position as a bishop, so they are not on the table to potentially become cardinals.
I don’t expect a conservative backlash, on the contrary Francis’s Pontificate has weakened the conservative wing considerably. Given that 80% of the voting cardinals were appointed by Pope Francis, I would expect them to elect a successor that continues in the same direction, perhaps even a more radical one.
During his pontificate Francis also made a lot of efforts to bring in new groups into the corridors of power. Not only by his appointment of cardinals, but also e.g. by reforming the Curia with Praedicate evangelium.
Compared to the iron grip the reactionaries held before my understanding is you’re right. That doesn’t mean that wing is going to get away with a continuist choice. I mean, it’s more likely than it used to be, but I’m not making a call until the Habemus Papam.
There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.
I think in terms of the church the term “conservative” does not necessarily align with the political understanding. The largest shift in the church is demographic. White Europeans are loosing power rapidly in the catholic church. Subsequently the catholic church will align less and less with “Western” conservatives, and their imperialist understanding of geopolitics.
I expect to see much more opposition of “christian conservative” politicians in Europe towards the catholic church.
Ironically just yesterday the president of the German federal parliament of the “christian conservative” CDU told the Churches to shut up about politics.
She is describing herself as catholic though and even studied catholic theology.Her attack was directed at all churches, not just the catholic church.
More specifically she said “the churches shouldn’t be another NGO” and then gave examples as to what they shouldn’t talk about. So the idea is already that "NGO"s are something bad and civil society voicing political stances is bad. But then religious institutions commenting on how politics are in violation of the values the religion teaches, seems to be particularly disdained. This is also historically worrisome as the churches in the GDR used to be hailed for taking a stance against the regime and there is a lot of stories, how the churches in the third Reich would have taken stance, although i am not sure if the ratio of opposition/silence/collaboration is accurately represented in those stories.
We’ll see where it goes. They aren’t exactly transparent about these things, and they’ve been arguing among themselves for a while. We’ll know with the white smoke, I suppose.
Should we make it about a religion that’s known for pedophile priests and them being protected? Or about how religion is a long con scam of power and wealth that has been the leading cause of war and persecution for centuries upon centuries?
Granted, by all appearances, I believe he seemed to be a pretty good guy. Hopefully the next pope will be as good. Take what you can while religions still exist, I suppose.
Because as much as you see it as a domestic throwaway denomination among many, they are extremely and increasingly overrepresented in developing countries (and a couple of European ones as well).
So if you want to know which way the use of contraceptives, the position on gay people or the express support for neofascism is going to go in Africa this is relevant.
It is not about the US or their opinions. And I say this as an atheist.
I am surpringly annoyed about Americans somehow finding a way to make this about themselves
And turning it into politics, because there is no otger way to talk about things
Sure, discussing politics is important to some degree, but it isn’t the most important thing in our lifes
One of the most important persons in the world (atleast for catholics) has died. We shouldn’t laugh about it. We shouldn’t politicize it. We shouldn’t take it to any other context.
I’m surprised and sad at the same time. Even tho i like edgy memes and memes about Pope John Paul II (he is a legend in Poland and polish community do meme about him but in a very respectful way), i really find it bad to do so about Pope Francis right now - so i dislike any post like this
It is literally a political position. There’s about to be an election to choose the next guy.
I agree that it is serious in that it’s going to have an impact on people’s lives, far beyond the relatively small direct power they have. That concerns me.
To be clear, I have zero respect for the institution, but I care about how they wield the influence they have, and I’d much rather have a relatively progressive guy like Francis than a relative reactionary like John Paul II, with all due respect to Polish pride. I’m assuming we can at least agree on taking him over Benedictus.
The church is political. The church should be political. Francis pushed for the church to take more of a stance and it rubbed “christian conservatives” the wrong way, because their political goals are a mockery of the values Jesus preached.
Europe has a history of stripping power from Christianity? Like, Europe Europe?
Is this some other Europe I don’t know about? There may be an Europe I entirely missed somewhere, I suppose. Because the Europe I know took a millenia to marginally diminish the power of Christianity, and it only happened because of liberal democracy quietly supplanting spirituality for convenience. It was in no way, shape or form a political choice based on them “misbehaving”.
I mean, even if that was true, which hah, nah, the places where the Catholic church is growing these days are in Africa and Asia. Stop making me have to lump Europeans with the gross ethnocentrism of USmericans.
For one thing, Belgium is like 2% of the EU, so barely representative. For another, being actively practicing is less relevant than how much political influence is wielded and how many institutions are baked into the legal and political system to align with a particular worldview.
And for another another, this isn’t about Europe (or the US) much at all. They matter way less than the countries trying to secure a semblance of civil rights in the context of an increasing interference from Western-originated religions using them as breeding grounds for retrograde conservatism.
So you are very welcome to remain oblivious and pretend you have culturally overcome the footprint of Christianity (which again, hah, nah), but that has zero bearing on the relevance of these events.
Yeah sure it impacted our culture. But nobody believes in Christianity anymore. There’s a political party dying because they have Christian in their name. Their voters literally keep dying year after year.
Haven’t really heard anyone talk about this religion the past 10 years.
I’ve heard a lot about Islam though, because of immigrants. Like god damn these people actually still believe in a deity.
Anyways, have fun with your religion stuff. Keep it out of belgium
Cultism is such a potent tendency of the human animal that new cults form spontaneously in the absence of established mythologies (or despite them). Fascism is a cult phenomenon, for instance, and the people vulnerable to such belief systems are unerringly broken in the same way that religious people are broken. It’s like someone scooped out the part of their brains responsible for maintaining epistemic norms and replaced it with oatmeal.
I am surpringly annoyed about Americans somehow finding a way to make this about themselves.
In reality I’m much more worried about the likely counterreformist pushback that is likely about to happen. We’re about to find out if a remarkably powerful organization’s leader was able to seed enough support to secure a politically aligned successor, and if the answer is “no” a bunch of organizations are about to get even more ruthlessly conservative at a time when a new strain of fascism is seeking moral support. The Catholic Church has been here before. It didn’t go well.
As a non-Catholic American, I have the same worry for the global geopolitics. It just so happens that the united states is part of those geopolitics.
Yeah. It’s more than annoying, especially as it’s the same old Vance joke again and again and again. Which isn’t even clever.
I am not a Christian by any means but I worked with them quite often. Francis did change a lot of things and while he wasn’t in no way perfect - he did have his drawbacks, for a fucking pope he was much better than anyone before him within the last few hundred years. People (especially on the internet)nowadays expect other people, especially political leaders to “check all their boxes” and if one thing is not going as far as they want, they are alienated.
Often I have the impression that as long as someone is not going “all the way” in the right direction they are seen as bad as someone who does not do anything at all or goes in the wrong direction. (Which is ironic because the church itself has evolved past the “saint or sinner” directive)
Francis has been going in the right direction probably 60% of the way and 10% in the wrong direction. Is the Catholic church there yet? No. Is there a big chance it might turn back? Yes. Would he been elected if he was so reformist it was sure he would topple everything and go 100%? Surely not.
But he did much more than any of his predecessors did.
Any much more most commenters do.
Besides: It’s okay to feel sorry for an old man dying. That’s called fucking compassion. I work in healthcare and have seen a lot of people die. I feel sorry for almost all of them.
In the end a human has died. Period.
John XXIII was pretty progressive, wouldn’t you think?
So progressive there’s an anti Vatican II movement in America
“Francis appointed nearly 80% of the cardinal electors who will choose the next pope, increasing the possibility that his successor will continue his progressive policies, despite the strong pushback from traditionalists.”
https://www.reuters.com/world/pope-francis-has-died-vatican-says-video-statement-2025-04-21/
The catch is that he did not appoint by ideology. His appointments were mainly based on the guys doing work for poor people, for migrants, and on them doing their jobs in the global south.
Quite a few of these he made cardinals are somewhat conservative in their views, especially regarding sexuality
It helps a bit that typically those that have more compassion tend to be more liberal, but in general even the more liberal Catholics tend to be somewhat conservative
I mean, there are catholic priests and officials that are very liberal - they do exist. But those people do usually not even get into a position as a bishop, so they are not on the table to potentially become cardinals.
I don’t expect a conservative backlash, on the contrary Francis’s Pontificate has weakened the conservative wing considerably. Given that 80% of the voting cardinals were appointed by Pope Francis, I would expect them to elect a successor that continues in the same direction, perhaps even a more radical one.
During his pontificate Francis also made a lot of efforts to bring in new groups into the corridors of power. Not only by his appointment of cardinals, but also e.g. by reforming the Curia with Praedicate evangelium.
Compared to the iron grip the reactionaries held before my understanding is you’re right. That doesn’t mean that wing is going to get away with a continuist choice. I mean, it’s more likely than it used to be, but I’m not making a call until the Habemus Papam.
It sure feels like the tides are turning conservative everywhere, but apparently a Filipino progressive is a favorite to be next
There is a roman saying, “the one who enters conclave as the pope [to be] leaves it as a mere cardinal”
There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.
A very old one indeed. It’s never certain how conclaves will go.
I think in terms of the church the term “conservative” does not necessarily align with the political understanding. The largest shift in the church is demographic. White Europeans are loosing power rapidly in the catholic church. Subsequently the catholic church will align less and less with “Western” conservatives, and their imperialist understanding of geopolitics.
I expect to see much more opposition of “christian conservative” politicians in Europe towards the catholic church.
Ironically just yesterday the president of the German federal parliament of the “christian conservative” CDU told the Churches to shut up about politics.
It is not ironic, half of Germans are protestants.
Nope. Half of Germans (47%) don’t have a confession. 21% of Germans are protestants.
She is describing herself as catholic though and even studied catholic theology.Her attack was directed at all churches, not just the catholic church.
More specifically she said “the churches shouldn’t be another NGO” and then gave examples as to what they shouldn’t talk about. So the idea is already that "NGO"s are something bad and civil society voicing political stances is bad. But then religious institutions commenting on how politics are in violation of the values the religion teaches, seems to be particularly disdained. This is also historically worrisome as the churches in the GDR used to be hailed for taking a stance against the regime and there is a lot of stories, how the churches in the third Reich would have taken stance, although i am not sure if the ratio of opposition/silence/collaboration is accurately represented in those stories.
We’ll see where it goes. They aren’t exactly transparent about these things, and they’ve been arguing among themselves for a while. We’ll know with the white smoke, I suppose.
Should we make it about a religion that’s known for pedophile priests and them being protected? Or about how religion is a long con scam of power and wealth that has been the leading cause of war and persecution for centuries upon centuries?
Granted, by all appearances, I believe he seemed to be a pretty good guy. Hopefully the next pope will be as good. Take what you can while religions still exist, I suppose.
Yes.
Yes, you should.
Because as much as you see it as a domestic throwaway denomination among many, they are extremely and increasingly overrepresented in developing countries (and a couple of European ones as well).
So if you want to know which way the use of contraceptives, the position on gay people or the express support for neofascism is going to go in Africa this is relevant.
It is not about the US or their opinions. And I say this as an atheist.
And turning it into politics, because there is no otger way to talk about things
Sure, discussing politics is important to some degree, but it isn’t the most important thing in our lifes
One of the most important persons in the world (atleast for catholics) has died. We shouldn’t laugh about it. We shouldn’t politicize it. We shouldn’t take it to any other context.
I’m surprised and sad at the same time. Even tho i like edgy memes and memes about Pope John Paul II (he is a legend in Poland and polish community do meme about him but in a very respectful way), i really find it bad to do so about Pope Francis right now - so i dislike any post like this
It is literally a political position. There’s about to be an election to choose the next guy.
I agree that it is serious in that it’s going to have an impact on people’s lives, far beyond the relatively small direct power they have. That concerns me.
To be clear, I have zero respect for the institution, but I care about how they wield the influence they have, and I’d much rather have a relatively progressive guy like Francis than a relative reactionary like John Paul II, with all due respect to Polish pride. I’m assuming we can at least agree on taking him over Benedictus.
The church is political. The church should be political. Francis pushed for the church to take more of a stance and it rubbed “christian conservatives” the wrong way, because their political goals are a mockery of the values Jesus preached.
It’s just a religion, we strip it of any power if they misbehave.
I am very curious to know who “we” is in this context.
Europe. We have a history of stripping power from christianity, and we’ll continue till there’s nothing left if necessary.
So yeah, just be powerless, it’s just a religion.
Europe has a history of stripping power from Christianity? Like, Europe Europe?
Is this some other Europe I don’t know about? There may be an Europe I entirely missed somewhere, I suppose. Because the Europe I know took a millenia to marginally diminish the power of Christianity, and it only happened because of liberal democracy quietly supplanting spirituality for convenience. It was in no way, shape or form a political choice based on them “misbehaving”.
I mean, even if that was true, which hah, nah, the places where the Catholic church is growing these days are in Africa and Asia. Stop making me have to lump Europeans with the gross ethnocentrism of USmericans.
I can’t really take it serious when Belgium is labeled as catholic Christianity majority.
The majority of practicing religious people are Muslim.
The churches are empty.
For one thing, Belgium is like 2% of the EU, so barely representative. For another, being actively practicing is less relevant than how much political influence is wielded and how many institutions are baked into the legal and political system to align with a particular worldview.
And for another another, this isn’t about Europe (or the US) much at all. They matter way less than the countries trying to secure a semblance of civil rights in the context of an increasing interference from Western-originated religions using them as breeding grounds for retrograde conservatism.
So you are very welcome to remain oblivious and pretend you have culturally overcome the footprint of Christianity (which again, hah, nah), but that has zero bearing on the relevance of these events.
Yeah sure it impacted our culture. But nobody believes in Christianity anymore. There’s a political party dying because they have Christian in their name. Their voters literally keep dying year after year.
Haven’t really heard anyone talk about this religion the past 10 years.
I’ve heard a lot about Islam though, because of immigrants. Like god damn these people actually still believe in a deity.
Anyways, have fun with your religion stuff. Keep it out of belgium
Unfortunately that’s not the way it works.
You should know that lots of countries and societies will not do this. Especially in the global south.
Cultism is such a potent tendency of the human animal that new cults form spontaneously in the absence of established mythologies (or despite them). Fascism is a cult phenomenon, for instance, and the people vulnerable to such belief systems are unerringly broken in the same way that religious people are broken. It’s like someone scooped out the part of their brains responsible for maintaining epistemic norms and replaced it with oatmeal.